Court Report: The PPCs and the harm they do.

Lamilad

[FONT=&quot]C5DP7T63[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Excel vs Kennedy[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Skipton Court[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DDJ Flanagan[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21/02/19[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In essence this was an unspectacular case and one that I would not normally consider to be ‘report worthy’ as it brought nothing new to the parking debate but since leaving the court this afternoon, I have found myself unusually preoccupied with the events that occurred. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So the case itself was a familiar one – Cavendish Retail Park > Sports Direct Gym > C says D didn’t enter their reg into the terminal (to obtain free parking) > D says they did and the machine didn’t record it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I was delayed getting to court so arrived just a few minutes before the case was called. I just had time to introduce myself and get a brief description of the events in play from Ms Kennedy. At first I thought Ms K was legally represented but it turned out the lady with her was a community care worker.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ms K is an elderly lady; she had brought her care worker along because she was so utterly terrified about the prospect of being in court. She kept saying ‘I can’t believe I’m here, I’ve never done anything illegal’ – which prompted a comment from me about the difference between criminal and civil court… but there was no reassuring her, she was practically paralysed with fear and her care worker didn’t look any more at ease – I was starting to regret not getting their earlier. The look of fear was replaced for a moment when she frowned and said sternly ‘…but I’m not paying it, I haven’t done anything wrong’, which made me smile[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] I asked if the care worker was her lay rep but they didn’t know what this meant; she just said she had to come because Ms K suffered with severe anxiety and needed someone with her. I didn’t have chance to look at any documents before we went in.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ms Kuyani was the Cs rep (solicitor’s agent from Elms). I’ve met her before; she’s lovely and very friendly, if a little timid; somehow doing the PPCs dirty work in this murky world doesn’t seem to suit her. DDJ Flanagan I had not seen before. He’s an older chap and a straight talking Yorkshireman. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He barely bothered with introductions and got straight down to business inviting Ms Kuyani to state the Cs case. She began talking about the signs, the T&Cs, ANPR; about 45 seconds in the judge, already frustrated, interrupted – “can we just cut through all this, none of it’s disputed. All that matters is that you say Ms K didn’t put her vehicle number into the terminal and she says she did so just tell me about that”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I began to feel a little uncomfortable about halfway through when DDJ F stated he was satisfied, on the BOP, that the terminal was working and Ms K had probably forgot to put her number in. Ms K blurted out that she didn’t ‘forget’ which got her the short shrift (Yorkshire style) from the Judge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the end he said everything the C was saying was probably true and Ms K had forgotten to enter her reg but it was a genuine mistake, she had not overstayed her free time and had proved that she was using the gym at the time. Any ‘breach’ the C was referring to was therefore de minimis as it was too trivial to warrant the Cs parking charge and had, in any case, caused no loss to them. He also said the claim breached the CRA 2015 as the charge was entirely disproportionate to the breach that had occurred. He referred to Excel vs Dagnall in front of Judge Iyre whilst giving this assessment (not a case I’m familiar with but maybe I misheard the name). DDJ F went on that as the breach was de minimis and Excel knew she had used the gym they should never have brought the claim.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He dismissed the claim without giving a judgement saying there will be no order for costs. Afterwards Ms K, who I thought would be relieved, was still in a heightened state of panic. She kept asking ‘is that it?’, ‘Is it over?’, ‘will they come after me again?’ Even Ms Kuyani had to reassure her that this was the end of it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What I have found to be unusually concerning about this case is the level of anxiety and fear this poor woman had to go through for almost 4 years (since the PCN date) and at the trial. Throughout the hearing she was wriggling in her chair, wringing her hands and rubbing her knees; it was genuinely uncomfortable to watch.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As we all know there is a plethora of advice out there to help people fight the PPCs but it’s almost all online. When I meet Ds in court who haven’t received any forum/ Facebook help it doesn’t bother me as I know the help was there for them to find, a simple google search would have done it – they just chose not to; but Ms K didn’t have a clue about the internet of things, and Facebook may as well have been something out of Star Trek – how was she supposed to find the support she needed?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fortunately she was in a good court with a good Judge who was prepared to make his own findings about the case even though the D had not pleaded them. It could have been a different outcome elsewhere – I don’t think her defence and WS were up to much.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This was a case of a nice old lady who was just living her life and enjoying her retirement. She had done nothing wrong yet was unfairly subjected to 4 years of harassment and intimidation culminating in a baseless court hearing which caused her untold stress and worry. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I know this case is not unique, and there are countless other cases where vulnerable people have been unfairly pursued but seeing Ms K’s distress up close and personal has troubled me and left me hoping even more so that the new government COP will put an end to all of this. Otherwise the question is – how do we reach the people that can’t reach us?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Umkomaas

Great report Lami, and very thought provoking. It's appalling the stress PPCs are prepared to put anyone through just so they can get their weasely fingers into people's wallets/purses. They should be utterly ashamed, but those totally devoid of any conscience in their grab for the coin, will not have any idea of what 'shame' is.

Sooner or later there will be a suicide.

Excellent gesture of yours to be there and supporting a seemingly very vulnerable elderly lady. I bet Excel wish they'd never tangled with you!

Coupon-mad

I plan to go along unannounced to a PPC court case or two on my days off soon. Glad you went & glad she won. I know what you mean that we can't reach these victims.

As it's half term and I was at home, I watched an old 'Can't Pay, we'll Take it Away' on TV earlier and they went to the home of a (perhaps not the sharpest minded) couple, scraping by with no money whatsoever, in pursuit of private parking 'fines' of almost two grand.

The victims had no clue about what they could have done, had just ignored it all because someone told him private firms couldn't do anything, and the DCBL guy said to the man 'do you think the parking firm issued these fines for nothing?'

I shouted ''yes, obviously'' at the TV...

Then DCBL were given a platform for one of them to say to camera how private parking fines are valid and can be pursued.

The bailiffs realised the couple had nothing even worth seizing but still barked at them that they would be nice and come back, making a pointless arrangement, so they could pay a grand in 14 days and the rest 21 days later.

There was no way those people would get that money, and they must have been terrified.

And the programme said NOTHING to tell people what to do to avoid this, that these are often (always...) spurious charges that can be appealed and won, or defended in court.

Could have done, but the programme didn't even bother and if you were a PCN victim who watched it clueless, you'd think the only option was to pay.

Really annoying, and sad, thinking about all the people we fail to reach.

Redx

I understand exactly where you are coming from there Mr L sir !

its a disgrace when they do this prolonged attack on law abiding people for minor errors (if it was one) - ie:- de minimis

it also reinforces the fact that de-minimis does apply in cases like these

I agree that it is a concerning matter and am glad that people like you feel this way, as should we all

hope she sleeps well tonight , for a change

Egbert_Nobacon

For most of the public a courtroom can be very intimidating.
In my daughter’s case Gladstones didn’t send a rep so the DJ presented their case.
This gave us the impression that she was on their side with her questions whilst we had no opportunity to put any questions to Gladstones or the PPC.
If the PPC were forced to have representation the cost may result in less claims.
Whilst they are allowed to do this on the cheap the courts will continue to be clogged up with petty claims.
Can it be fair for them to have the DJ as an unpaid advocate?
BTW claim was dismissed - no costs awarded !!

Fight_the_good_fight

Just finished shouting at the TV and QT and switched to this forum for solace and found the post quite chilling.

I notice that some of the regulars appear to get a heads up re upcoming cases is there a public list for upcoming hearings

Coupon-mad

You can too, from the Parking Cowboys website with a list shown every weekday morning:

https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/parking-court-case-daily-listings/

The more the merrier if we can get more of us to go along and kindly offer help. Even if you are not a regular, not an expert, but feel you have something to offer people, and have the time.

Fight_the_good_fight

Thanks CM I will certainly keep an eye out for such cases in Manchester. Working shifts I have quite a few days off through the week and other than attending out of interest and knowing your enemy and if additionally I can offer moral support and basic working knowledge I will do

Coupon-mad

And you should find good Judges at Manchester, like Lamilad does at Skipton.

Hopefully Defendants will just need a bit of hand-holding and steering to the best defence points and the Judge will agree!

Snakes_Belly

I feel for this lady because like myself she comes from a time when people were not chased through the courts for minor transgressions.

Older people's perception of court is that you must have done something wrong. A friend of my told me that they thought that I would probably 'get off '. I replied 'I am not the accused'.

I doubt very much on the BOP that the terminal was working. Excel have claimed in their WS in my case that they dispute my allegation of poor customer service and failure to maintain their equipment. I have said not allegations but fact and used the Keighley issues as an example along with others.

It's difficult when having worked as a customer service manager I would compensate a customer if we had failed in providing a good customer service. These companies set people up to have difficulty in complying with their terms and conditions.

It's a shame that the judge did not award the lady some costs as she has had this hanging over her for several years. Those years are important to her because as you get older you don't know how many more that you may have..

Well done Lamilad.:T

Snakes_Belly

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You can too, from the Parking Cowboys website with a list shown every weekday morning:

https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/parking-court-case-daily-listings/

The more the merrier if we can get more of us to go along and kindly offer help. Even if you are not a regular, not an expert, but feel you have something to offer people, and have the time.

Snake's day in court 26th :eek: