If there isn't a hard-border what would stop Eastern European immigrants entering UK via Ireland??

Rich2808

whatmichaelsays wrote: »

The voting system has a lot to do with it. I don't believe that our politicians are fundamentally that different to those in other countries, but the way our politicians are elected encourages the wrong behaviour.

Electoral systems in Germany and many parts of Europe tend to result in more hung and coalition parliaments. It's a system that encourages politicians and parties to compromise in the national interest.

Our FPTP system doesn't do that in the slightest. It isn't proportional, doesn't accurately reflect the wishes of the electorate and essentially splits the country into two distinct party lines. It emboldens party ideology (see the "will of the people" rethoric) and results in the sort of confrontational politics that we see now - everybody on the leave side is convinced that people voted for the very particular flavour of Brexit that they have in their own head, and anybody attempting to disagree with their own version of Brexit is "frustrating the will of the people", despite the pre-referendum campaigning mooting numerous shades of grey.

You wouldn't get that in a more proportional electoral system - at least not the extent we have it here.

Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland use PR electoral systems (party lists) to elect their parliaments - and they aren't EU members and in most case have decided via referendums not to be. Russia uses essentially the same electoral system as Germany to elect the Duma. So your argument doesn't really hold water.

I might agree PR is a better system but I am not sure FPTP is the cause of Brexit. Some nations have more independent streaks - possibly because they have historically not been ruled by other nations (e.g. the Brits, Russians and Swiss).

whatmichaelsays

Rich2808 wrote: »

Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland use PR electoral systems (party lists) to elect their parliaments - and they aren't EU members and in most case have decided via referendums not to be. Russia uses essentially the same electoral system as Germany to elect the Duma. So your argument doesn't really hold water.

I might agree PR is a better system but I am not sure FPTP is the cause of Brexit. Some nations have more independent streaks - possibly because they have historically not been ruled by other nations (e.g. the Brits, Russians and Swiss).

I didn't say that FPTP is the cause of Brexit.

I do however believe that is a significant factor behind some very divisive and very partisan approaches to political debate in this country.

As I said, politicians in many EU nations demonstrate the ability to compromise far more than those in the UK.

melanzana

FPTP is totally Binary.

So those with an alternative voice are never heard, no matter what you might think of them.

And the Binary system also means that there will inevitably be members of both parties who do not agree with the party line, so they will moan internally and what good is that.

But let us look at a PR system. That would be full democracy IMV, but it is gone now, and look what we are left with.

I am sorry now, but I don't think the electorate can figure out anything other than a Red or Blue tick at this stage.

That is not good.

peterbaker

buglawton wrote: »

What you can't see in the picture is the army of highly paid engineers, technician and software people behind the scenes. Desperate caracature there about 'kicking out foreigners'. When the actual Brexit idea is to rebalance to a more selective policy of skilled immigration.

I am not sure what side of the argument you are on, buglawton without combing through your previous Brexit posts. But skilled immigration to do what? What opportunity will be left a few years after Brexit that any self respecting EU skilled labour person would want to trouble to come to UK for - to maintain the AI software and design the processes for the automated warehouses perhaps because we don't have the necessary skills here? Might that be because our data science peeps major in games software rather than serious future business applications, and our own engineers have all been laid off and gone a bit stale on AI development anyway?? Or what is it you envisage exactly?

Thrugelmir

whatmichaelsays wrote: »

As I said, politicians in many EU nations demonstrate the ability to compromise far more than those in the UK.

Took Germany 4 months to form a coalition Government.

Belgium now has a minority Government following the collapse of the coalition.

Took the Dutch 208 days to form a 4 party coalition.

Compromise at what cost? Hardly dynamic. Reflective arguably of the EU's negotiating stance during Brexit. There isn't one. As there's no real agreement as to the future direction outside of Brussels.

whatmichaelsays

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Took Germany 4 months to form a coalition Government.

Belgium now has a minority Government following the collapse of the coalition.

Took the Dutch 208 days to form a 4 party coalition.

Compromise at what cost? Hardly dynamic. Reflective arguably of the EU's negotiating stance during Brexit. There isn't one. As there's no real agreement as to the future direction outside of Brussels.

I'd argue that is much more condusive to positive policital discource than the FPTP system.

May likes to justify herself by stating that "in the last General Election, people voted for two parties that support Brexit", neglecting to mention that for all intents and purposes, the choice was between a party that supports Brexit and a party that supports Brexit.

andrewf75

melanzana wrote: »

FPTP is totally Binary.

So those with an alternative voice are never heard, no matter what you might think of them.

And the Binary system also means that there will inevitably be members of both parties who do not agree with the party line, so they will moan internally and what good is that.

But let us look at a PR system. That would be full democracy IMV, but it is gone now, and look what we are left with.

I am sorry now, but I don't think the electorate can figure out anything other than a Red or Blue tick at this stage.

That is not good.

You could argue its as much the fault of the electorate as it is the system. People vote like sheep for the two main parties and when a few years back the Lib Dems were part of a coalition, the public bought into this idea that they had let people down by compromising. Even when there was a clear opportunity to desert the 2 main parties at the last election, when remainers could have voted Lib Dem as a protest, they bottled it.

phillw

andrewf75 wrote: »

when remainers could have voted Lib Dem as a protest, they bottled it.

It's the fault of the election system, If you vote Lib Dem and few others do then your vote is wasted. Until we move away from first past the post then we'll be stuck with two party politics.

Unfortunately staunch Labour and Conservative voters know this and are therefore never going to agree to any change as they know it would only hurt their cause.

We need to lose a war or something before we'll have the humility to govern successfully.

movilogo

And the Binary system also means that there will inevitably be members of both parties who do not agree with the party line, so they will moan internally and what good is that.

This will cause the split of Lab and Con to create Brexit and Remain parties - a new 2-party system.

Herzlos

movilogo wrote: »

This will cause the split of Lab and Con to create Brexit and Remain parties - a new 2-party system.

I don't think it will. Some might split into a 3rd party but most will stay put. They know it's a 2-party state and will continue to game the system.


Nothing is more important to the Tory party than the Tory party, or they'd have split decades ago.