Parking overstay PCN. POPLA appeal refused, do I continue?

The_Napper

Hi, I'm a new member here but have been monitoring threads on here since last October when I received a PCN. I believed I could quash the charge by being honest and open with the issuer as to what happened so I did not follow the guidelines on here as well as I probably should have.
I have tried to find similar cases on here and hoped not to need to create a new thread but alas I have failed there.
I received a PCN for overstaying the allowed maximum parking time (by about 12 minutes) in the car park of a Doctors surgery. I had an appointment at the surgery and thus had legitimate grounds to use the car park, unfortunately I failed to use the available registration device which is located within the surgery for those whose appointment goes over the allowed time and thus extends it. There are mitigating reasons for this but probably not important here.
I am not the RK of the vehicle but as I was the driver and to avoid the girlfriend getting more letters I wrote to the issuer and admitted that I was the driver.
I appealed the re-issued PCN thinking that as I had legitimate grounds to be in the car park and that my overstay was minimal and that 30 minutes of the time was when the surgery was still not open (arrived at 7:30 to be first in line to secure an appointment at 8:00am opening), then they would quash the charge.
I received the standard reply saying appeal failed and I still had to pay the £60 (£100 After 14 days).
I then appealed to POPLA mainly on the grounds that the signage in the car park was ambiguous and that the terms and conditions could be misinterpreted.
The signs read:
PARKING CONDITIONS
45 MINUTES MAXIMUM STAY
PATIENTS/VISITORS WISHING TO STAY LONGER MUST REGISTER FOR A PERMIT AT RECEPTION
IF you breach any of these terms you will be charged £100.
These terms apply at all times.
Additional costs/recovery charges will be incurred if payment is not received within 28 days.
[It then mentions use of ANPR for monitoring, DVLA for driver details and the PCN issuer contact details; address, number and website].

There is an additional sign at the entrance which states
MAXIMUM PARKING TERMS APPLY
See car park signs for terms and conditions
[It also includes Data Protection information].

Non of the signage either inside the car park or at it's only entrance stipulate what the car park is associated with. The car park is surrounded by a sports centre, a library, council buildings, a pharmacy and the back of the surgery for which the car park is associated (this has no identification signage on it). The signage could be interpreted as referring to any of these buildings, (many being closer to car park bays than the surgery) and the issuer could not prove I hadn't registered with any one of their receptions..
The car park does not have a 24 hour reception where registrations can be made and none of the buildings mentioned above are open at all times so it is impossible to comply with the terms stated.
This was the basis of my appeal to POPLA which was rejected, I realise I have probably not done things as I would have if I had used this site from day one but that is too late now. One of the grounds for rejection was my lack of use of the telephone number listed on the sign. I found this very strange as I did not have a mobile with me on the day in question so couldn't do so at that time but I did try the number numerous times after receipt of the PCN but without success . The number goes to a voicemail and I cannot leave a daytime contact for them to return my call so I hung up. But how do POPLA justify stating this? There was obviously a lot more to the rejection but I do not have access to the document at this time.
I now have 28 days from about 22nd Jan 2019 to pay or they will start court proceedings.

Since my appeal to POPLA I have remembered registering the car in question on the registration device in the surgery several weeks earlier on another appointment. I tried to add this to my reply to the argument by the issuer during the POPLA assessment but didn't manage to get it in. I believe that the signage does not specifically stipulate registering details for every visit and it could be argued that one registration applies "for all times" as stated on the sign. This could be clutching at straws so to speak?

My next step is to ignore any demanding letters and wait for the LBCCC and hopefully follow guidelines as per
Crabmans “Parking - Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC) - Fight back! Guidance Thread”.

I believe that if I lose any court case I will probably need to fork out about £200, does this include everything or can they add additional debt recovery charges as well.
If I win then the £100 is earmarked for three charities so it's not about the money, its more the principle.
I never thought things would get this far but was obviously very wrong there.
Do you think I have grounds to fight this or have I already ruined my chances and if so what do you think will be the best grounds to do so.
I apologise if the above is somewhat garbled and may have missed out certain details but I am hoping to initiate this query tonight while I have chance.

Many thanks in advance for any advice regarding this matter.

KeithP

The_Napper wrote: »

My next step is to ignore any demanding letters and wait for the LBCCC and hopefully follow guidelines as per Crabmans “Parking - Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC) - Fight back! Guidance Thread”.

That thread - Parking - Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC) - Fight back! Guidance Thread* is very old. It dates from 2013 and things have moved on since then.

Your best bet is to follow the guidance offered in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread which is up to date.

Yes, ignore debt collectors letters, but post again on this thread if ever you receive either a Letter of Claim or official court correspondence and you still need help.

Hopefully you will have read post #2 of the above-mentioned NEWBIES thread before then.




*decided to remove the link because that thread is so old and it wouldn't be fair to point others towards it.

MistyZ

Has a complaint been made to the Practice Manager at the surgery?

I hear that getting landowners to cancel the charge after a POPLA refusal can be more difficult. However it's worth a punt.

There is plenty of mitigation here and 12 minutes is a very short period of time. Don't mention 'clutching at straws' or anything else that suggests possible failings on the driver's part. Lots of NHS premises have PPC-infested car parks these days and that just doesn't sit well with the very variable lengths of waiting / appointment times. Signage undoubtedly was poor. Registering at reception is just one step too many sometimes .... the forum's full of people who forgot to do this / got one digit wrong etc.

My approach when complaining includes being such a (basically polite) pain in the neck that the recipient complies eventually just to make me shut-up.

The_Deep

Of course you continue, (or ask the surgery to pay.

If a doctor keeps you waiting it is hardly a deliberate breach of contract, and failing to enter your VRN is surely a trifle. IMO this claim is a waste of court time, and an abuse of process. When are judges going to wake up to this scam.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=de+minimis&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&refig=ffb88e3d21f442ffabd202f45c4df7e9&PC=ACTS&sp=-1&pq=de+minimis&sc=8-10&qs=n&sk=&cvid=ffb88e3d21f442ffabd202f45c4df7e9

The whole industry is a scam, relying on threats of court, and the public's ignorance of the Law, A bill is currently before parliament which will regulate the scammers, many of whom are ex-clampers.

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Second Reading in the Lords this month, and, with a fair wind, will l become Law later this year..

All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.

The_Napper

MistyZ wrote: »

Has a complaint been made to the Practice Manager at the surgery?

I hear that getting landowners to cancel the charge after a POPLA refusal can be more difficult. However it's worth a punt. .

Thanks for reply.
I have mentioned the PCN to a receptionist at the surgery but have never been able to talk to the practice manager. Receptionist says they have nothing to do with the car park. The car park is managed by the PCN issuer who I believe are legally doing so with agreement from an unknown landowner. I intend finding the name and address of landowner and writing to them. I will also be requesting copies of any agreement they have, either from landowner or PCN issuer.
I also intend informing them of the signage in the car park which basically allows anybody with a bit of savvy to park there, call into the surgery, enter their registration into a tablet which is accesible to anyone and then leave their vehicle there for as long as they wish while they go about any business they so desire. There is no obligation to be a patient, you just need to be a visitor and by entering the surgery to input your registration you then become a visitor and thus complying with terms and conditions on the sign. This basically means that the car park is then not available for it's intended use for patients of the surgery.
I also spoke to receptionists at the leisure centre adjacent to the car park, they also get a lot of people going there asking to register their details as they believe the car park is for their use.
I doubt very much the landowners are aware of the shoddy way their land is being managed but I intend on letting them know.
Apologise if I'm ranting but this whole business gets me that way.

Umkomaas

Find out from the local authority who is paying the non domestic rate for the car park, then you can test the veracity of the surgery's statement. If it's true, then you have the name of the ndr payer. If they're telling you porkies, escalate the complaint within the practice.

Have you involved your MP? If not, do so now!

The_Napper

Umkomaas wrote: »

Find out from the local authority who is paying the non domestic rate for the car park,
Have you involved your MP? If not, do so now!

Can I just contact the local council to find this out? I'll be surprised if they would give this information out?

Not contacted MP as yet but am considering doing so?

Coupon-mad

If this went to POPLA and you included the usual point about no landowner authority, you will have the name of the landowner in the POPLA evidence they fielded.

They must have produced evidence, but only if you raised it at POPLA.

unfortunately I failed to use the available registration device which is located within the surgery for those whose appointment goes over the allowed time and thus extends it.

You didn't fail to do anything! Your paragraph there should read:

''unfortunately the scammer PPC use a totally unsuitable registration system which allows drivers just 45 minutes and places a wholly unreasonable burden on patients of the surgery whose appointment goes over the allowed time or is delayed, to have to remember to register their car, despite the stress of their illness/appointment.''

Have I missed you saying which PPC? Is this ParkingEye?

Umkomaas

Can I just contact the local council to find this out? I'll be surprised if they would give this information out?

Try it and see. But don't do as one poster did a year or so ago, complain about the advice with a bit of a rant because the council wouldn't answer the phone.

It was a Sunday! !!!!!!! :doh:

The_Napper

Coupon-mad wrote: »

If this went to POPLA and you included the usual point about no landowner authority, you will have the name of the landowner in the POPLA evidence they fielded.

They must have produced evidence, but only if you raised it.

Have I missed you saying which PPC? Is this ParkingEye?

This issue was not raised at POPLA, my lack of knowledge in these matters probably the reason?

As you ask, the PPC is CEL.

The_Napper

Umkomaas wrote: »

Try it and see. But don't do as one poster did a year or so ago, complain about the advice with a bit of a rant because the council wouldn't answer the phone.

It was a Sunday! !!!!!!! :doh:

Thanks, I'll give it a go but I think I can get the details from the surgery as they did say previously they would give me them only the manager was out at the time?