Parking overstay PCN. POPLA appeal refused, do I continue?

Coupon-mad

Oh dear, had you just used the forum template you'd have won, no POPLA needed.

How about a written complaint to the Practice Manager, delivered by hand in an envelope, and ask for his/her name - and stand there and write that name on the envelope marked 'Strictly private - addressee only'.

And in that letter of complaint, spell out why the system is FAILING patients in their hour of need at the surgery, and how it actually contravenes the NHS Parking Principles (Government Policy sent to all NHS Trusts at least 2 years ago):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

Contracted-out car parking
NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.

NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line with the relevant codes of practice6where applicable.

Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.

Ask him/her to cancel the PCN and URGENTLY review the timing and the entire system, which is not obvious or workable for ill people and incentivises these fines as CEL's only income, contrary to the rules for any surgery or hospital car parks.

Point out that (even if you are not suffering from a long term condition yourself*) plenty of surgery visitors are elderly, not very mobile and chronically ill, and you are sure the Surgery realises that abusing an penalising disabled people will in fact constitute a breach of the Equality Act 2010, not just by CEL, but also liable will be the party who contracted CEL.

And 45 minutes is not even enough for non disabled people when their appointment is delayed. HOW DARE the surgery pass the burden to patients to have to remember the convoluted system to escape a fine for waiting in the waiting room or having a longer appointment!

And finally, ask him/her to pass the complaint to the site landowner if the surgery has no ability to cancel, as the landowner certainly will and needs to be made aware of EVERY complaint, and the NHS Car Parking Principles which are being breached.



*if you are...REALLY go to town on the Equality Act and your protected status in law.

The_Napper

Many thanks, info and help very much appreciated.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Oh dear, had you just used the forum template you'd have won, no POPLA needed.

Ouch, I am aware of that, I did look on this site prior to any appeal but was inundated with information saying do this, do that, don't use templates, do use templates etc and as I thought I had legitimate grounds to park where I did then the PCN would be quashed without any need to appeal further. I did provide a letter, signed by the practice manager to confirm my appointment that day and they also agreed with my appeal against the charge but this was of no use.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

How about a written complaint to the Practice Manager, delivered by hand.

Sounds like good advice, I will hopefully do that by Monday.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.

Is it not possible that the PPC get income from other sources e.g. from the landowner as payment to manage the car park for them?

The_Deep

I have mentioned the PCN to a receptionist at the surgery but have never been able to talk to the practice manager. Receptionist says they have nothing to do with the car park.

Most/all NHS practices have feedback/website pages where you can comment on their service, search for it and write bad stuff on it, and complain to your MP.

The whole industry is a scam, relying on threats of court, and the public's ignorance of the Law, A bill is currently before parliament which will regulate the scammers, many of whom are ex-clampers.

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Second Reading in the Lords this month, and, with a fair wind, will l become Law later this year..

All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.

Umkomaas

Is it not possible that the PPC get income from other sources e.g. from the landowner as payment to manage the car park for them?

Highly unlikely. It's the 'attraction' of contracting a PPC to 'manage' parking is that they provide the service for free - they just take the penalty charge income. In direct conflict with NHS principles for car parking management arrangements on their property.

In fact, many operators actually pay the landowner to manage the car park, especially heavy footfall locations. For example, in Beavis, it became clear that ParkingEye were paying £250k per year to 'farm' the Riverside Retail Park. And they're not the only PPC making profit from their 'investment'.

The_Napper

Coupon-mad wrote: »

....and in that letter of complaint, spell out why the system is FAILING patients in their hour of need at the surgery, and how it actually contravenes the NHS Parking Principles (Government Policy sent to all NHS Trusts at least 2 years ago):

I have looked at the principles as set out by the NHS trust and whereas I am certain they give me very good grounds to make a complaint to the surgery I am not 100% certain they apply to any or all local General Practitioners. The website of the surgery I refer to says it is the practice that pays for it's own maintenance and upkeep etc and not the NHS. They certainly cater for NHS patients and are funded by the NHS for doing so but I'm not sure if the above mentioned principles apply in situations like this.
I hope and think I'm wrong but I don't want to go writing letters to the practice manager complaining about something which does not apply to them?
This may seem like I'm being a bit pedantic but I'm in for the long haul now and I want to get things right.

Umkomaas

The website of the surgery I refer to says it is the practice that pays for it's own maintenance and upkeep etc and not the NHS.

From what other source of income?

I hope and think I'm wrong but I don't want to go writing letters to the practice manager complaining about something which does not apply to them?

Let the practice manager tell you.

The Principles provide you with additional pressure to apply, not a silver bullet - there isn't one!

MistyZ

Practice managers probably get a lot of very whacky letters etc. They'll probably be relieved to receive a sensible one.

There again, do not give two hoots about what they think of your complaint! They manage the practice and patients, their friends and families are getting ripped off to a significant degree. Don't delay a minute longer. Good luck.

The_Napper

Just to keep this thread Up to date:
As advised, I compiled and hand delivered a letter, (more as a statement of facts and a list of failings than an all out complaint) to the manager of the surgery in question. It ended up being a very long document (5 pages plus 2 extra, one detailing the events, the other a BPA CoP extract re signs) , I was going to try and condense it but in the end it was doing my head in so I sent it as it was, it contained all points as advised by posters on this thread and more. The manageress called me up about 2 hours later, very sympathetic and asked me to send her the document electronically so she could forward it to the landowner who she identified to me, she said she'd try and assist in getting the charge quashed. She sounded very genuine and helpful and even tried to have the PCN stopped as I spoke to her (failed with the reason being it was after the POPLA appeal??). Not sure how she did this and feel a bit suspicious of it as I have been told they have no control over the car park so how was this possible? She then said if she'd been asked earlier maybe she could have done something. I didn't question this at the time but later remembered that she had been aware of the PCN as she had issued me a letter confirming my appointment and that she endorsed my appeal? Anyway just food for thought. I'll wait a few days to see if anything transpires then chase it up if nothing heard.
I'm also looking into sending or hand delivering the same letter to my local MP along with reiteration of the statement recently made by an MP in the House of Commons regarding Parking Scammers, I know it's somewhere in this forum.
I'm also considering sending same to PALS to add to their list of greviences around how NHS organisation car parks are managed.
Otherwise I don't think there's anything I can do for now but wait for the summons to go to court. Trouble is very litle of the above is relevant if it goes to court as it will not form the basis of my defence.

Unkomaas, re your signature line about teaching a person to fish rather than feeding him for a day and your post comment "The Principles provide you with additional pressure to apply, not a silver bullet - there isn't one!" Thanks for that, I don't want the one fish, I've got me a fishing rod and I'm learning to fish, so instead of that silver bullet I'd prefer a nice big juicy worm.

Cheers and thanks for all help so far.

Coupon-mad

Sounds like the surgery really mucked this up, as clearly she COULD have cancelled it on the day they gave you a useless letter for 'appeal'.

The NEWBIES thread tells people always to absolutely exhaust landowner complaint, and certainly BEFORE POPLA because otherwise the PPC will dig their heels in, as you have discovered.

Fight it in court then, and win it there, if the overall landowner won't cancel it.

This regime has no place in any NHS/clinic car park, even a privately owned one.

The_Napper

After the POPLA appeal failure I received a letter from the PPC dated 22nd January stating;


"Following POPLA's decision we are now writing to inform you that we are not able to accept any further appeals for this PCN and payment is now due within 28 days from the date of this letter.
In the event that payment is not received we will have no option but to issue proceedings against you to recover the amount due to us. We will add our additional costs, interest and fees to the claim.
Payments can be made by...........blah blah blah."


Is this a 'Letter before claim'? If so I failed to appreciate this and have done nothing. If this is the actual LBC should I now be completing the SAR request?