Court hearing - Gladstones Solicitors - P4Parking

nosferatu1001

I wont follow dropbox links

1) Explain - they were not valid and then cancelled or are they other PCNs still waiting to be lititgated by them?
2) And?
It can be too late for their made up deadlines AND still be useful to them!
3) Then you rebut that these have any validity - if for example your incident was at night and their phtoos are a birght summers day, there is a clear discrepancy
4) Indeed, you can state you were an occupant of the vehicle. Your car does hav X seats after all...

Nameless

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

I wont follow dropbox links

1) Explain - they were not valid and then cancelled or are they other PCNs still waiting to be lititgated by them?
2) And?
It can be too late for their made up deadlines AND still be useful to them!
3) Then you rebut that these have any validity - if for example your incident was at night and their phtoos are a birght summers day, there is a clear discrepancy
4) Indeed, you can state you were an occupant of the vehicle. Your car does hav X seats after all...

How can I upload their new additions to the WS that you can read and feedback?

I really need some help here.

Nameless

Any feedback guys from the supplementary ws submitted by gladstones?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vf8d95y8n618p3s/Supplementary%20WS.pdf?dl=0

Coupon-mad

At your hearing, get it struck out for lateness like Sassii & others have done:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74956703#post74956703

The first thing you need to say at the hearing is to politely clear your throat with a little cough and say to the Judge that, before any WS or evidence are considered, you object to the attempt to send more evidence after they saw your own WS, and you ask that their 'supplementary witness statement' and the very late evidence they've tried to ambush you with is now struck out and not allowed to be considered.

Be really clear how late is was foisted upon you and that you feel 'ambushed' and 'disadvantaged' by this unreasonable conduct from a highly litigious parking firm using a robo-claim firm of solicitors who file hundreds of parking claims every month.

They cannot be allowed to add supplementary late WS and evidence and should NOT be allowed relief from sanctions. Say that and let the Judge decide. Be really clear how unfair this late bombardment is, and that it is against the CPRs that a multi-litigant company with a robo-claim solicitor know very well.

Then hopefully it will not be allowed.

Even if it is (and I don't think the Judge will allow it) here's a crib sheet about it:

- what the heck are they doing with all those pics of other cars on other days(!), none of which shows a readable sign and one of which even shows a completely different sign with red writing on it (who knows what it says?).

- what the heck are they doing (and what were POPLA on) suggesting that the little sign round a corner at the end is 'prominent'? There are no terms readable anywhere near your car.

- even if you went & read the sign, the listed contraventions where £100 becomes payable, do not include anything about how to display a permit, not overwriting it, etc.

- clearly as these visitor permits are free, no driver would try to re-use one as it gains no advantage at all, so on the balance of probabilities, no driver would do this and knowingly consent to pay £100 known 'fee' supposedly fairly agreed under contract!

- can you suggest that the back of the visitor permits DO NOT have those terms on the back at all and put the Claimant to proof. Suggest that their mocked up version is misleading, and as far as you recall, visitor permits in that batch are blank on the back...this would be for them to prove otherwise unless you've put on in evidence (front & back). You can raise this as an issue and ask the Claimant to prove it.

- the front says unlawfully and contrary to the IPC CoP that an overwritten permit would result in a parking charge with NO RECOURSE TO APPEAL (Jeez!) and it doesn't even say how much - a thousand pound penalty, 50p, or what?!

- Uncertainty does not make a contract. You can't agree to a term that is unfair (no appeal, so says the permit) and doesn't state what the parking charge sum you are mant to be agreeing to, even is.

AT THE HEARING, BE THE ADMITTED DRIVER. BE HONEST AND CLEAR WITH YOUR POINTS.

AT THE HEARING, DO NOT EVEN MENTION 'NO GPEOL'.

Stick to the fact this free permit was 'authorised' by the resident and was completed properly, and in any case, none of the signs are anywhere near the car.

Images of the car on other occasions are completely irrelevant, and were not necessarily you as the car has more than one driver, and this Claimant has tried to besmirch your reputation and this late evidence is irrelevant to the case in hand and should be completely disregarded.

Basically, the signs fail. They are tiny, sparsely placed, some have red writing that the Claimant hasn't bothered to show in evidence, and the one they have shown isn't necessarily the one shown in the background 500 yards back...and even if it is, there's nothing about overwritten permits (or anything about what constitutes an authorised permit) on the sign list of contraventions.

Have they even bothered to show landowner authority?

Nameless

Coupon-mad wrote: »

At your hearing, get it struck out for lateness like Sassii & others have done:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74956703#post74956703

The first thing you need to say at the hearing is to politely clear your throat with a little cough and say to the Judge that, before any WS or evidence are considered, you object to the attempt to send more evidence after they saw your own WS, and you ask that their 'supplementary witness statement' and the very late evidence they've tried to ambush you with is now struck out and not allowed to be considered.

Be really clear how late is was foisted upon you and that you feel 'ambushed' and 'disadvantaged' by this unreasonable conduct from a highly litigious parking firm using a robo-claim firm of solicitors who file hundreds of parking claims every month.

They cannot be allowed to add supplementary late WS and evidence and should NOT be allowed relief from sanctions. Say that and let the Judge decide. Be really clear how unfair this late bombardment is, and that it is against the CPRs that a multi-litigant company with a robo-claim solicitor know very well.

Then hopefully it will not be allowed.

Even if it is (and I don't think the Judge will allow it) here's a crib sheet about it:

- what the heck are they doing with all those pics of other cars on other days(!), none of which shows a readable sign and one of which even shows a completely different sign with red writing on it (who knows what it says?).

- what the heck are they doing (and what were POPLA on) suggesting that the little sign round a corner at the end is 'prominent'? There are no terms readable anywhere near your car.

- even if you went & read the sign, the listed contraventions where £100 becomes payable, do not include anything about how to display a permit, not overwriting it, etc.

- clearly as these visitor permits are free, no driver would try to re-use one as it gains no advantage at all, so on the balance of probabilities, no driver would do this and knowingly consent to pay £100 known 'fee' supposedly fairly agreed under contract!

- can you suggest that the back of the visitor permits DO NOT have those terms on the back at all and put the Claimant to proof. Suggest that their mocked up version is misleading, and as far as you recall, visitor permits in that batch are blank on the back...this would be for them to prove otherwise unless you've put on in evidence (front & back). You can raise this as an issue and ask the Claimant to prove it.

- the front says unlawfully and contrary to the IPC CoP that an overwritten permit would result in a parking charge with NO RECOURSE TO APPEAL (Jeez!) and it doesn't even say how much - a thousand pound penalty, 50p, or what?!

- Uncertainty does not make a contract. You can't agree to a term that is unfair (no appeal, so says the permit) and doesn't state what the parking charge sum you are mant to be agreeing to, even is.

AT THE HEARING, BE THE ADMITTED DRIVER. BE HONEST AND CLEAR WITH YOUR POINTS.

AT THE HEARING, DO NOT EVEN MENTION 'NO GPEOL'.

Stick to the fact this free permit was 'authorised' by the resident and was completed properly, and in any case, none of the signs are anywhere near the car.

Images of the car on other occasions are completely irrelevant, and were not necessarily you as the car has more than one driver, and this Claimant has tried to besmirch your reputation and this late evidence is irrelevant to the case in hand and should be completely disregarded.

Basically, the signs fail. They are tiny, sparsely placed, some have red writing that the Claimant hasn't bothered to show in evidence, and the one they have shown isn't necessarily the one shown in the background 500 yards back...and even if it is, there's nothing about overwritten permits (or anything about what constitutes an authorised permit) on the sign list of contraventions.

Have they even bothered to show landowner authority?

This is awesome, I cant thank you enough for your help.

They have submitted the landowner contract as can be seen in the original WS (which they submitted on time) - https://www.dropbox.com/s/0dgff924vhbkx5v/Bundle%20the%20approved%2C%20signed%20statement%20with%20the%20exhibits.pdf?dl=0

However, we pointed out some flaws on this thread previously like:

1) Inconsistency in signatures
2) The contact does not have a approval name/signature
3) No sign of a renewal to the contract (although it does state it will be rolling).
4) The Site location is inconsistent - some places it says P190, others Aldgate estate, others say 50 Mansell Street etc.

I had a couple of questions coupon-mad:

1) The statement to the get supplementary WS struck out, shall I state this to the judge before any proceedings, as usually claimant says their piece first etc - or shall I wait for my turn to get the supplementary WS struck out?

2) Shall I take a letter from my mother giving me consent to park as her visitor?

3) Shall I take a letter from the other drivers of the vehicle that highlights they also use the car?

Or will it be too late to present these documents.

Also, just to be clear, gladstones sent out Supplemental WS 11 days before the hearing date.

Again, I really appreciate the help you have given.

Thank you so much.

nosferatu1001

You say it RIGHT at hyte start - exactly as C-M told you!
Be polite but firm

That would help, signed under statement of truth, but again - thats evidence that should have been disclosed beofre. Hard for you to claim AMBUSH! on them if you do the same in return!
No, just state when quesitoned, if you are, that there are multiple autohrised drivers, they are either on your insurnce or have DOV cover.

Nameless

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

You say it RIGHT at hyte start - exactly as C-M told you!
Be polite but firm

That would help, signed under statement of truth, but again - thats evidence that should have been disclosed beofre. Hard for you to claim AMBUSH! on them if you do the same in return!
No, just state when quesitoned, if you are, that there are multiple autohrised drivers, they are either on your insurnce or have DOV cover.

I did think of getting a letter at one point, but though against it as they have never once disputed the permission to park, but more so technicalities of the permit.

Nameless

Thanks for all your help guys. Have the hearing tomrrow.

One last thing, if I lose tomorrow, how much can be levied in terms of charges?

Coupon-mad

The PCN sum plus about fifty quid in court fees, as long as you clearly object to the 'made up out of thin air' £60 add-ons for debt collection that not only do not exist, but were never paid/incurred, at all.

Let us know how you get on.

Get there half an hour early to get through security calmly, and no agreeing to a 'little chat' with the rep in a side room, or taking late papers from him/her - just politely decline any discussion outside.

You can take my last post above as a crib sheet if needed, for what to say first - and I mean, FIRST. Don't let the Judge start allowing the late WS and considering evidence from it. Speak up and say the entire WS and evidence should be disallowed because they ambushed you with it far too late.

Take proof with you, that you submitted your WS and evidence to the Claimant's solicitor (a printout of the email) in case they try to pretend your arrived late or not at all, to muddy the waters. They lie.

And take a wage slip or proof of income to claim your half day (or whole day) of salary or leave you wasted to attend, plus your travel and parking. If you win, do not forget to ask for your costs immediately at the end before time is up - don't be shy! If you feel really confident, list all the unreasonable conduct in the case, from late WS to lack of particulars of claim, lack of evidence, lack of compliance with the pre-actio protocol for debt claims (by not supplying everything with the LBC before court proceedings began).

Ask for costs on the indemnity basis to include your time at £19 per hour LiP rate. sassii got a 4 figure sum!

Nameless

Coupon-mad wrote: »

The PCN sum plus about fifty quid in court fees, as long as you clearly object to the 'made up out of thin air' £60 add-ons for debt collection that not only do not exist, but were never paid/incurred, at all.

Let us know how you get on.

Get there half an hour early to get through security calmly, and no agreeing to a 'little chat' with the rep in a side room, or taking late papers from him/her - just politely decline any discussion outside.

You can take my last post above as a crib sheet if needed, for what to say first - and I mean, FIRST. Don't let the Judge start allowing the late WS and considering evidence from it. Speak up and say the entire WS and evidence should be disallowed because they ambushed you with it far too late.

Take proof with you, that you submitted your WS and evidence to the Claimant's solicitor (a printout of the email) in case they try to pretend your arrived late or not at all, to muddy the waters. They lie.

And take a wage slip or proof of income to claim your half day (or whole day) of salary or leave you wasted to attend, plus your travel and parking. If you win, do not forget to ask for your costs immediately at the end before time is up - don't be shy! If you feel really confident, list all the unreasonable conduct in the case, from late WS to lack of particulars of claim, lack of evidence, lack of compliance with the pre-actio protocol for debt claims (by not supplying everything with the LBC before court proceedings began).

Ask for costs on the indemnity basis to include your time at £19 per hour LiP rate. sassii got a 4 figure sum!

Thanks for this.

What about solicitor fees for on the day etc? They will try and add that on?