Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

movilogo

We voted in 650 people to represent us and do what they think is best for us, and internal party politics has brought the whole process to a screeching halt.

There lies the problem. The representative democracy with 2-party system is not working anymore. MPs just don't represent the public.

We need a proportional representation. Not much chance of happening though as 2 major parties don't want that.

SouthLondonUser

I'd tend to agree, but a proportional system would be too alien to the political culture of this country.
An alternative vote system like the Australian one might be a better compromise. Look it up. It's like FPTP, with the difference that you can rank multiple candidates in order of preference. So someone could vote, say, Lib Dem, Change UK, Greens, Labour

Or

Tory, UKIP, Brexit Party

Without worrying that his/her vote would be a wasted vote that would make the right/the left win.

Moby

BikingBud wrote: »

That's rather naive expecting politicians to represent and enact the will of the electorate.

If that was the case we would no longer be in the EU.

You appear to have bypassed the shenanigans of the last 3 years.

What's naive is people assuming they know the 'will of the electorate'!

waamo

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

I'd tend to agree, but a proportional system would be too alien to the political culture of this country.
An alternative vote system like the Australian one might be a better compromise. Look it up. It's like FPTP, with the difference that you can rank multiple candidates in order of preference. So someone could vote, say, Lib Dem, Change UK, Greens, Labour

Or

Tory, UKIP, Brexit Party

Without worrying that his/her vote would be a wasted vote that would make the right/the left win.

We had a referendum in 2011 about the Alternative Vote system. The result was pretty conclusive.

SouthLondonUser

I know what happened in 2011. I still believe it would be a better system.

Also, the political landscape is now very, very different from that in 2011.The shortcomings of the FPTP system had not become as apparent in 2011 as they are now.
FPTP failed to deliver a clear majority in 2 of the last 3 general elections.
Political choices are now more fragmented. FPTP is a terrible system for accurately representing the preferences of a country with 4 main parties (Tories, Labour, Lib dems, Brexit Party , and this is without counting the Welsh and Scottish parties).

1 or 2 elections ago the SNP won something like 90% of the Scottish seats with 55% of the votes. How anyone can claim that this is not an appallingly distortive result is beyond me.

Interestingly, there was a lot of misinformation back then. Many advocates of the No campaign claimed that the AV system would have given some people more than one vote which, regardless of your opinion on electoral systems, is simply false. We didn't reach the level of lies and wishful thinking seen with Brexit, but there were certainly lots of patently fake news being spread around.

gfplux

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Any backstop is meant to be temporary, but that depends on the eu negotiating in good faith. I really do not see that happening because they do not want anyone to leave.

I have no real objection to the WA, as it is purely the divorce agreement, but we really should have insisted on negotiating the trade deal at the same time as the divorce. I have my suspicions about why the eu did not wish to do this, and the more I look at the eu's negotiating strategy the more it seems to be designed to force us to remain.

If we go with the WA, and the eu mess about with the trade deal, then I am pretty sure we could take them to court and tell them to get stuffed on the grounds that they did not negotiate in good faith.

As for the idea that the border checks could be in the Irish sea, well, with that it was feared that the eu was basically trying to take over NI, and I really would not put it past them.

What do you think of the. Political declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.CI.2019.066.01.0185.01.ENG&toc=OJ:%20%20C:2019:066I%3Cimg%20src%3D

I assume you don’t think it goes far enough?

I am definitely under the impression that civil servants from BOTH sides have been working on the flesh of this bare bones commitment which as you know so well is not legally binding.

cogito

The process to fill the top 5 law and policy making positions in the EU has just started. Don’t forget to vote.

Oh.......

Filo25

cogito wrote: »

The process to fill the top 5 law and policy making positions in the EU has just started. Don’t forget to vote.

Oh.......

The process to fill the actual job of PM of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is continuing don't forget to vote

Oh.......

Never mind at least we will get to vote on the cabinet positions afterwards.

Oh........

SouthLondonUser

Precisely. I am so sick and tired of clueless ignorant Brexiters repeating the same nonsense about how we don't elect European Commissioners and civil servants, but forgetting that British democracy is as, if not in some cases more, indirect. There have been so many discussions on this.

Cogito, will you admit your mistake and apologise? Yes? No? Why?

By the way, I wonder how Brexiters would react if the European Parliament had a FPTP system which gave, say, 95% of the seats to a party with 55% of the votes (the SNP in Scotland a couple of elections ago).

cogito

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Precisely. I am so sick and tired of clueless ignorant Brexiters repeating the same nonsense about how we don't elect European Commissioners and civil servants, but forgetting that British democracy is as, if not in some cases more, indirect. There have been so many discussions on this.

Cogito, will you admit your mistake and apologise? Yes? No? Why?

By the way, I wonder how Brexiters would react if the European Parliament had a FPTP system which gave, say, 95% of the seats to a party with 55% of the votes (the SNP in Scotland a couple of elections ago).

Nope. The next PM of the UK is being chosen from people who were elected by the people. Tusk and Juncker were not elected by anyone.