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Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

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Comments

  • Zero_Sum
    Zero_Sum Posts: 1,567 Forumite
    ???????????????????????????????????????


    Voting remain meant one thing: the status quo. No ambiguity possible.


    Voting to leave could have meant many different and mutually exclusive things.



    If you disagree with this self-evident banality, please explain.



    Yes, a slight majority voted to leave. But what does that mean? Is there a majority to leave at any cost? To leave with no deal? To leave with May's deal? Or what? Do you know? I do not.

    You couldnt be more wrong.

    Remain was either:

    a) The current situation
    b) what the EU actually want - further ingegration
    c) To be 'in the club' but fight from inside for reform.

    All of these were mentioned during the debates. And its a pretty much guarentee that the EU in 10 or 15 years time wont be the current status quo.

    Its just as ambiguous, more so that they tell us b) wont happen due to various vetos we have, but our elected members have historically not done this. I do suspect partly its to relieve themselves of accountability, and can then just blame the EU. But this in turn people more Eurosceptic.
  • phillw
    phillw Posts: 5,665 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    BikingBud wrote: »
    Is it better? For who? It cannot be better for both parties.

    You have a better negotiating position the larger you are, the EU will therefore get a better balance trade deal than switzerland or we will ever get.

    You do understand negotiating right?
    Zero_Sum wrote: »
    All of these were mentioned during the debates.

    By whom? Someone we could trust? Or anyone from the leave side?
    Zero_Sum wrote: »
    And its a pretty much guarentee that the EU in 10 or 15 years time wont be the current status quo.

    Right, it will be better. I can guarantee the UK won't be the current status quo, it will be worse for leaving the EU.
  • SouthLondonUser
    SouthLondonUser Posts: 1,445 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    @zero sum,



    I know it's my fault, I know I should have got used to that by now, but I continue to be amazed by the outrageous insistence with which Brexiters continue to deny the most self-evident truths...


    Voting Remain meant voting for the status quo. Period. Yes, of course, like anything, stuff may change and the future is unpredictable, but a vote for remain was a vote for the status quo.
    Can you maybe spell out exactly who would have wanted what kind of integration , how and when?
    Can you maybe spell out who would should have fought for what and how?



    Note that the fake news about a European army or about Germany setting the level of taxation across the continent don't count.


    After voting Brexit, the Brexiters have not been able to find an agreement on what the hell leaving should mean. Do you want to deny this, too, are you willing to admit at least this self-evident banality?



    Have you seen remainers argue in an even-only-vaguely-comparable way on what remain should mean? Do you think that, had remain won, remainers would have fought with each other over what remain should have meant like Brexiters have?


    Brexiters have not even been able to find a consensus on what to ask the EU!!! They are beyond ludicrous...
  • Zero_Sum
    Zero_Sum Posts: 1,567 Forumite
    phillw wrote: »
    You have a better negotiating position the larger you are, the EU will therefore get a better balance trade deal than switzerland or we will ever get.

    You do understand negotiating right?



    By whom? Someone we could trust? Or anyone from the leave side?



    Right, it will be better. I can guarantee the UK won't be the current status quo, it will be worse for leaving the EU.


    b) by Junker
    C) by Clegg

    No one knows what it will be like. Although in 10-15 years down the line we probably wont have left anyway. And imho the EU will only be better if it accepts major reform & scales back the empire building. If it doesnt do this, then the support for the far right which is sweeping across Europe will just keep grown & the EU could end up in a civil war.
  • Zero_Sum
    Zero_Sum Posts: 1,567 Forumite
    And now remain are making fake news about fake news.
    The EU army that Macron was saying should happen only a few months back?
  • phillw
    phillw Posts: 5,665 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Zero_Sum wrote: »
    And imho the EU will only be better if it accepts major reform & scales back the empire building.

    What empire building? The UK is the only ones looking to rebuild their Empire.
    Zero_Sum wrote: »
    If it doesnt do this, then the support for the far right which is sweeping across Europe will just keep grown & the EU could end up in a civil war.

    The far right in europe are no different to ukip/brexit party/erg in this country, they want to blame foreigners for their own problems. The biggest threat of civil war is if we leave the EU, because half of us don't care for the country to be turned into a xenophobic cess pit that it's already started turning into.
  • wintersunshine
    wintersunshine Posts: 471 Forumite
    edited 10 May 2019 at 11:42PM
    ...and it's time for another vote to rid us off this madness.

    It's also time for a new leader of the Labour Party. We were subjected to the madness of the Tory party and it's obsession with Europe in the 90s and we dealt with by voting them out of office from 1997 to 2010. People forgot and were stupid enough to vote for them again and that has led to the madness we see now.

    But what do we do ? Vote Corbyn? Why that is worse madness!

    Bring back the rejected Ed Miliband would he really have done worse than what has happened since 2010?

    The solution to all this is to stop voting Tory. But we need an alternative. Both parties are to blame for where we are now.
  • SouthLondonUser
    SouthLondonUser Posts: 1,445 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    If the (unpopular) president of 1 country, Macron, talks about a European army, this doesn't mean that there is anything even only remotely comparable to a consensus! It doesn't mean that the EU wants a European army - that is fake news!
  • phillw
    phillw Posts: 5,665 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 10 May 2019 at 11:48PM
    Vote Corbyn? Why that is worse madness!

    I keep hearing that, but all I see are people pretending that we should already know why that would be madness rather than explaining it.
    If the (unpopular) president of 1 country, Macron, talks about a European army, this doesn't mean that there is anything even only remotely comparable to a consensus! It doesn't mean that the EU wants a European army - that is fake news!

    It also doesn't necessarily mean what you think of as a EU army.

    https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_the_european_army_a_tale_of_wilful_misunderstanding

    People will be upset about Nato next.

    Although I actually wonder what people dislike about the idea of an EU Army. It sounds like something only a xenophobe would hate.
  • Zero_Sum
    Zero_Sum Posts: 1,567 Forumite
    phillw wrote: »
    What empire building? The UK is the only ones looking to rebuild their Empire.



    The far right in europe are no different to ukip/brexit party/erg in this country, they want to blame foreigners for their own problems. The biggest threat of civil war is if we leave the EU, because half of us don't care for the country to be turned into a xenophobic cess pit that it's already started turning into.

    The whole expansion into the east when many of the countries shouldnt have (yet) been admitted. When you have FoM between a poor country & a rich one, only one thing is going to happen. Its ideology over common sense.

    FoM can be a good thing, but realistically only works propery when its between countries of similar standard of living. The current set up is flawed.

    And ukip/bp are nothing compared to the far right on the continent.

    Political projects tend to go wrong when they put ideology first. The rise in the far right is a consequence of this & the EU have their heads in the sand over it.
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