Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

BobQ

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Still leaves the unresolvable Irish border issue. Mean while the infighting in the UK makes the Union increasingly fractured.

Of course it does but given time there is a solution. Norway does not seem to have a problem with its EU border for example.It is only unresolvable if you stick to the same red lines.

BobQ

BikingBud wrote: »

If people thought the options were not clear, what action did they take to educate themselves?

Some probably did nothing but others read of the different models (Norway, Swiss, EFTA, Canada and no deal). But what use is that when you only have one question covering them all as "Leave".

Had the Leave campaigns (and their were two of them) been consistent and said that Leave meant leaving the EU without a deal on WTO terms (which many now say it meant) then there would not be much to question. But what happened is that leading leave spokespersons said different things about the various options, and said it during the Referendum creating uncertainty as to what was meant.

For example Michael Gove said

“There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone."

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"
Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer"


"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing"
Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people"
Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK"
Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9mdWxsZmFjdC5vcmcvZXVyb3BlL3doYXQtd2FzLXByb21pc2VkLWFib3V0LWN1c3RvbXMtdW5pb24tcmVmZXJlbmR1bS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAPInys4ASsQljBbbnrowmi4fWFHSXp7gQtZfX88Oomecrv5tGDaPAxzk6xxhoK84WtWI4bL_bV7T3Q62fxDNRpgrNe8QeuzpABDBV84ijEWjXKck7MdqL-Mn9lH05IB2NrFMbWeyFGddORmNx_oAGHDscQrVSjWWRSjfubEfjeJ

cogito

mayonnaise wrote: »

56.8% of the Newport West electorate voted for a pro-remain party (Labour/Plaid/LD/Green/Renew) in 2019.
A constituency that voted 56% leave in an advisory, non-legally binding referendum back in 2016.

Right on cue, you prove my point that you post fake news. Labour's manifesto position is still to ensure that the referendum result is honoured regardless of their subsequent shenanigans.

ukcarper

I really don't think people voted for any particular style leave they voted leave because they wanted to end FOM stop being under the ECJ and have ability to make own trade deals, perhaps not all of them so if we accept a deal that ties us into all of those that in my opinion is not respecting the result of referendum.

cogito

StevieJ wrote: »

Should be fun when we go up against ultra protectionist Trump in the trade negotioations :eek: Maybe we could send Piers and Nige to negotiate? Well maybe not

We trade very successfully with the US on WTO terms. It would not be a disaster if we could not reach a trade agreement.

Takedap

BikingBud wrote: »

If people thought the options were not clear, what action did they take to educate themselves?

Quite a few got their opinions from the back of a beermat.

Is that really the best way to make decisions affecting the future prosperity of the country?

BikingBud

Takedap wrote: »

Quite a few got their opinions from the back of a beermat.

Is that really the best way to make decisions affecting the future prosperity of the country?

And general elections or by elections are any different because?

BikingBud

phillw wrote: »

I get it, you're being pedantic and then when I got you to explain it then I used your argument against you.

It's not pedantry. What mayonnaise said was grossly incorrect. You cannot escape the logic by calling it pedantry.

phillw wrote: »

It's often said that people start left wing and get more right wing as they get older, I started right wing & got more tolerant as I got older. But it doesn't mean I'm a pushover. If you wanted people to be tolerant of you then you shouldn't have started out by being intolerant of others. I'm a great believer in treating others how you want to be treated, eventually I give people what they surely want.

Left and right wing are not the ends of the tolerance spectrum. Your denial of anybody with a differing opinion clearly demonstrates your level of tolerance, your use of derogatory and inflaming worlds further demonstrates you inability to consider, in a rational manner, both sides of the argument.

BikingBud

BobQ wrote: »

Some probably did nothing but others read of the different models (Norway, Swiss, EFTA, Canada and no deal). But what use is that when you only have one question covering them all as "Leave".

Had the Leave campaigns (and their were two of them) been consistent and said that Leave meant leaving the EU without a deal on WTO terms (which many now say it meant) then there would not be much to question. But what happened is that leading leave spokespersons said different things about the various options, and said it during the Referendum creating uncertainty as to what was meant.

For example Michael Gove said

“There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone."

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"
Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer"


"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing"
Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people"
Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK"
Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9mdWxsZmFjdC5vcmcvZXVyb3BlL3doYXQtd2FzLXByb21pc2VkLWFib3V0LWN1c3RvbXMtdW5pb24tcmVmZXJlbmR1bS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAPInys4ASsQljBbbnrowmi4fWFHSXp7gQtZfX88Oomecrv5tGDaPAxzk6xxhoK84WtWI4bL_bV7T3Q62fxDNRpgrNe8QeuzpABDBV84ijEWjXKck7MdqL-Mn9lH05IB2NrFMbWeyFGddORmNx_oAGHDscQrVSjWWRSjfubEfjeJ

So those "some people who did nothing" have no real grounds for not being educated about the options then? And even less grounds to complain afterwards that they didn't understand.

Takedap

BikingBud wrote: »

And general elections or by elections are any different because?

Because this has been sold to us as a permanent, never go back decision.


And on something as important as this, I'm sure that you would agree that we should make sure that we get it right.


At the moment this is not by any means certain.