Openreach want to charge for not being able to find a fault

iniltous

Retrogamer wrote: »

In the past I've worked with various ISP's for just over 10 years now can say in an ideal world the above is correct. But from experience it's not what happens normally.

We get a customer to connect to the test socket. Ask to remain there, remove any other electrical equipment from nearby the router and we test and monitor the connection. We can see high errors occuring, interference being detected and sometimes we can even see a hard fault such as a high resistance joint or similar.

We send out Openreach. Sometimes like has happened to the OP, Openreach give us the engineers report and says no fault found. WHen we check the connection despite it having being problematic for weeks / months suddenly it's all fine and there are no errors or interference or hard faults...despite the engineer reporting nothing was done.

The thing to remember is if Openreach don't find a fault, then the ISP has to pay them. If they do find a fault and it's before the test socket, then Openreach need to pay for it.

Now i'm not saying that Openreach are dishonest on reports on purpose to generate more revenue but i've had reports staying no fault found etc, then i've spoke with the customer and they've said engineers have changed the master socket / lead in cable / drop wire etc but it's not been mentioned on the report.

AFAIK, if it's a conscious decision to appoint, CDTA , in other words , the line test system says no issues, line testing OK) but the customer ( more importantly the service provider at the customers insistance) asks Openreach to visit , the first port of call for the engineer should be the customer address to try from the master socket test port , if all OK there , then OR may raise a charge for the unneccesary visit and in my opinion , it's understandable that they ask 'why are we even here ?' Unfortunately it's an imperfect system, intermittent problems may not be present, but similarly intermitant problem may be nothing to do with Openreach but the service provider themselves, especially if it's internet performance , rather than a telephony problem such as 'no dialtone' NDT .
If the customer doesn't have a NTE type master socket , then changing it to an NTE is understandable upgrade , but if a charge is raised its not for the socket change its for the FNF/RWT, as I said it's not a perfect system , especially something like a noisy line could be present when it's raining hard but OK when it's dry, that's one of the reasons I asked the OP what the reported issue was, ( but the OP never answered that question ) because if the report was something like the Internet slows down to unacceptable speeds at peak time, that is very unlikely to be anything to do with OR and if it's insisted that OR visit, a charge is almost inevitable.
As far as the suspicion that OR have a dishonest policy of knowingly misrepresenting a fault clear to generate revenue, if you have any evidence , get onto Ofcom immediately , as that type of fraud could result in jail time for the architect of such a blatantly dishonest policy , and a multi, multi million pound fine for OR, but of course there isn't any evidence, just assuming that's how it must work...the guy on site certainly doesn't benefit financially , so why would that individual lie ?.....but mistakes can and do happen, if the charge is genuinely unfair, the service provider can challenge it

JJ_Egan

Agree with the above.
In my own case OR are trying to find a fault that cleared in May last year but came back in December .
Line tests are all OK .
Fault on on BT TV Sport multicast .

InNeedOfALittleHelp

Just had a reply from a manager today saying that they listened to the call 'in detail' (as I requested in the first place) now think I was given misinformation and will waive the charge!


Thank you for your support MSE members.

iniltous

InNeedOfALittleHelp wrote: »

Just had a reply from a manager today saying that they listened to the call 'in detail' (as I requested in the first place) now think I was given misinformation and will waive the charge!


Thank you for your support MSE members.

So for clarity , presumably this is manager of HomeTelecom your internet service provider ( not an Openreach manager ) and the charge has been waived by your ISP (not OR) as it was your ISP (not OR) that misinformed you.

Retrogamer

iniltous wrote: »

AFAIK, if it's a conscious decision to appoint, CDTA , in other words , the line test system says no issues, line testing OK) but the customer ( more importantly the service provider at the customers insistance) asks Openreach to visit , the first port of call for the engineer should be the customer address to try from the master socket test port , if all OK there , then OR may raise a charge for the unneccesary visit and in my opinion , it's understandable that they ask 'why are we even here ?' Unfortunately it's an imperfect system, intermittent problems may not be present, but similarly intermitant problem may be nothing to do with Openreach but the service provider themselves, especially if it's internet performance , rather than a telephony problem such as 'no dialtone' NDT .
If the customer doesn't have a NTE type master socket , then changing it to an NTE is understandable upgrade , but if a charge is raised its not for the socket change its for the FNF/RWT, as I said it's not a perfect system , especially something like a noisy line could be present when it's raining hard but OK when it's dry, that's one of the reasons I asked the OP what the reported issue was, ( but the OP never answered that question ) because if the report was something like the Internet slows down to unacceptable speeds at peak time, that is very unlikely to be anything to do with OR and if it's insisted that OR visit, a charge is almost inevitable.
As far as the suspicion that OR have a dishonest policy of knowingly misrepresenting a fault clear to generate revenue, if you have any evidence , get onto Ofcom immediately , as that type of fraud could result in jail time for the architect of such a blatantly dishonest policy , and a multi, multi million pound fine for OR, but of course there isn't any evidence, just assuming that's how it must work...the guy on site certainly doesn't benefit financially , so why would that individual lie ?.....but mistakes can and do happen, if the charge is genuinely unfair, the service provider can challenge it

Them marking jobs as NFF and testing is all ok despite them doing work to the Openreach network somewhere is certainly something that really does happen. I certainly couldn't say it happens on purpose though as a means for Openreach to save / generate more revenue.
Perhaps the engineers are just rushing when filling out the form about what work was completed and accidently use the wrong fields here and there.

The problem with disputing the costs with Openreach is that is a job in itself a lot of the time with the amount of hours needed to investigate, gather evidence then dispute it with Openreach until both the ISP and them come to an agreement and sadly that time spent on getting someone (or more than one depending on the ISP customer base) can sometimes offset the money from just rolling over and paying out the fees instead.

brianposter

Retrogamer wrote: »

Them marking jobs as NFF and testing is all ok despite them doing work to the Openreach network somewhere is certainly something that really does happen. I certainly couldn't say it happens on purpose though as a means for Openreach to save / generate more revenue.
Perhaps the engineers are just rushing when filling out the form about what work was completed and accidently use the wrong fields here and there.

Anyone got a copy of the form that Openreach engineers fill in when they investigate a fault ?

iniltous

There isn't a form as such, faults are 'cleared' by using 'clear codes' and possibly a brief description of the work ( if any) that was undertaken, it's not neccesarily the engineer that decides if charges are appropriate, often it's back office staff that spot the fact that a TRC ( time related charge ) is appropriate ....the engineer themselves don't put themselves in a position of telling the consumer that charges will apply, Openreach don't bill the consumer, they bill the provider, it's upto the provider , if OR charge them, to either absorb or also bill their customer...that's why the provider should be at pains to ensure the consumer checks at the master socket test port etc

Retrogamer

brianposter wrote: »

Anyone got a copy of the form that Openreach engineers fill in when they investigate a fault ?

It's a digital questionnaire they answer on their JDSU unit (IIRC) and it sends their responses to the SMC service desk at Openreach. They they then publish the responses on the Openreach website where the ISP log in and view them exactly as they have been entered.

That's where you can tell it's not been filled in correctly as it states "right when tested" and no repairs made, yet the customer will at times advise they have completed repairs outside but it's not noted.

phillw

onomatopoeia99 wrote: »

and if on ADSL, five miles would be right on the edge of working at all.

Right. Coupled with being made from aluminium due to the copper shortage and insulated with paper, which falls apart every time they dig up the pavement to fix someone elses line. Which then adds another couple of joins, adsl hates joins as much as it hates aluminium.

The estate has had virgin for years & we got fibre early too, I'm probably in the minority using ADSL now. If they'd put out a slow fibre package that was as cheap as the ADSL packages then I'd switch to that.

I've actually disconnected all the internal sockets as I don't use them and they caused the internet to cut out during hot summer, someones joke of using a master socket as an extension was possibly partly to blame for that.

brianposter

Retrogamer wrote: »

It's a digital questionnaire they answer on their JDSU unit (IIRC) and it sends their responses to the SMC service desk at Openreach. They they then publish the responses on the Openreach website where the ISP log in and view them exactly as they have been entered.

So how do they report "now working but dont know why" ?