If there is a second referendum ...

Moby

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/14/i-dont-trust-the-government-to-look-after-me-or-my-dog-meet-the-brexit-stockpilers


Details on where to get your ration cards from to follow apparently...

Matt_L

BLB53 wrote: »

As I said, I am not saying people do not have the right to change their mind. When the decision of the 2016 vote has been delivered and we are out, the people and politicians can quite legitimately start the campaign for us to rejoin.

But I firmly believe... that when we are given a once-in-a-generation referendum, warned repeatedly of the economic dangers of leaving, promised that the result would be implemented, thereafter 500 MPs voted to trigger A50 and just to make sure, we had a subsequent GE where over 80% of MPs were elected on manifestos to respect the decision...we are fully entitled to leave without remainers forcing us to vote again.

We are entering dangerous waters if this continues and a constitutional crisis. Hopefully common sense and a few more grown-ups doing the right thing will prevail.

The reason remoaners are so desperately trying every underhanded trick in the book including a second referendum to overturn the peoples vote is because they know that once we do leave on the 29th of March there will never be any going back.

They know that in 5-10-15 years time, there will be a very small, tiny group of europhiles begging anyone that will listen to them for another referendum. Our great country and peoples will have moved on whilst looking at the EU with huge relief that we got out when we did.....

David_Aston

Nobody will force you to vote again blb. In fact, if you would intend to vote for brexit again, I would rather you didn't vote!
As a once and always remainer, I reckon we should leave, without a deal, on next Monday say. Also, no question of any "owed" money being paid to the EU.
It will be as horrible as we remainers fear. However, within three years there won't be a Brexiter to speak of in existence, so rejoining will be straightforward.

gardner1

I think a lot of MP's may have underestimated things

If we have another referendum....and this is just my own opinion....Leave will have an even bigger majority

If we have a snap GE.....and this is my own opinion....a lot of MP's will be in for a shock when they are dumped

MobileSaver

Matt_L wrote: »

The reason remoaners are so desperately trying every underhanded trick in the book including a second referendum

Asking the people what they wanted in 2016 was the pinnacle of democracy, a shining beacon in the dank, murky world of British politics...

... but asking the people what they want in 2019 is a desperate underhand trick! Go figure!

The desperation of the Leavers is almost palpable, whatever could they be afraid of?

gardner1 wrote: »

If we have another referendum....and this is just my own opinion....Leave will have an even bigger majority

My opinion is that you could not be more wrong so let's have the referendum and find out who is right.

movilogo

If you look into main 2 parties, they are divided like this:

Tories = Pro-EU | Pro-Brexit
Labour = Pro-EU | Pro-Brexit

So there is effectively no differentiating factor between 2 main parties. Hence, both parties need to split between pro-EU vs Brexit.

Herzlos

I don't think parties need to split between pro/anti-Brexit, since it'll be a fairly transienty thing in politics, and the country will have bigger issues to deal with whether we leave or not (like how to deal with the age timebomb and crumbling infrastructure).

gardner1 wrote: »

If we have another referendum....and this is just my own opinion....Leave will have an even bigger majority

Then why not support another referendum and shut up all the Remainers?
The reason nothing is moving forward is because Parliament is completely torn. Show them some clarity and make them leave.

Matt_L wrote: »

The reason remoaners are so desperately trying every underhanded trick in the book including a second referendum to overturn the peoples vote is because they know that once we do leave on the 29th of March there will never be any going back.

Underhanded tricks like respecting Parliamentary Sovereignty, and asking the will of the people?


Anyway, the reason we're so concerned about Leaving before rejoining, is that doing so will cause a lot of damage. It's like driving a bus off a cliff - you can drag it back up to the top afterwards, but it's never going to be the same as it was before.

They know that in 5-10-15 years time, there will be a very small, tiny group of europhiles begging anyone that will listen to them for another referendum. Our great country and peoples will have moved on whilst looking at the EU with huge relief that we got out when we did.....

I really, truly hope that you're correct. Being pragmatic though, within 5 years all of the angry Brexiters will still be angry at the government, yet almost no-one will admit to having voted Leave. Within 10 years there will be a credible movement to rejoin, and within 10 years we'll be back in the EU on terms worse than we had before we left. That's why we want to make sure a hard Brexit is what people actually want before doing so. If you're confident that the people want to leave, then have the referendum and silence the Remainiacs.


I just want us to avoid spending 10 years going backwards, and wasting time that we could be using to fix societies problems instead of blaming a bogeyman.

movilogo

Then why not support another referendum and shut up all the Remainers?

Problem is this can only happen if 2nd referendum gives these options

1. No deal = leave
2. TM's deal = remain

However, remainers want following options

1. TM's deal = remain
2. Remain = remain

In case we get 3 options (which is still unfair as 2 remain vs 1 leave option)

1. No deal = leave
2. TM's deal = remain
3. Remain = remain

Only one option will win say getting 35% of votes. Then critics will say 65% opposed that option hence can't be implemented.

Brexit has proven one thing beyond doubt - our MPs are totally useless.

andrewf75

Herzlos wrote: »

Within 10 years there will be a credible movement to rejoin, and within 10 years we'll be back in the EU on terms worse than we had before we left. .

Disagree. Rejoining would be massively problematic. The movement to rejoin will be a movement to rebuild close relations in the manner of Switzerland or Norway. lets be honest even remainers are not that enthusiastic about the political project. For me, Norway/Switzerland would be our natural place in Europe.

Herzlos

That must have been raised and solved a hundred times on this very thread.


I've never seen a single remainer want the remain/remain options though. Or anyone who thinks Mays deal is a good one, or really counts are leaving. It's definitely a "worst of all worlds" approach.


Single Transferrable Vote with 3 questions (No Deal / May / Remain) means the least popular option is dropped (probably Mays) and then the one with the most votes in the 50/50 wins it. It accounts for all combinations and has precedent.
or
Having 2 questions:
Leave or Remain
if Leave, No Deal or May.


It has the added bonus that Leave is more likely to win, with 2/3rds of the options, and potentially Remainers won't get a say on the type of deal. STV is by far the better option for all.

Disagree. Rejoining would be massively problematic. The movement to rejoin will be a movement to rebuild close relations in the manner of Switzerland or Norway. lets be honest even remainers are not that enthusiastic about the political project. For me, Norway/Switzerland would be our natural place in Europe.

Oh it'd be a total mess. But by that time we're in the position it'll likely be the best choice, unless the damage from the "no deal" Brexit was so bad there was no value in rejoining (i.e. we've no industry or banking left).