UPDATE 29/01 I need some help with a parking fine from myparkingcharge.co.uk for a hired vehicle

ireallycantyodel

Computersaysno wrote: »

You're wasting your time trying to get Europcar to listen or repay...they will refuse...until...


You send them an LBA saying you want refunding.


They will refuse/ignore....so....


go on MCOL and issue court papers...remember to stick in £100/£200 for your 'time'....in my experience they will pay up pretty sharpish.


Job done.


All the hirecos are the same and ther BVLRA [their trade body] backs them up....so don't waste time trying to educate them...just hit them in the wallet.

Are you saying I would win in small claims court 100% - Because that would be the only way to scare them into paying me back.

I was just thinking about calling the credit card issuer and charge the £40 back - but then that might result in them chasing me ;-)

nosferatu1001

No, you would not have a 100% chance of winning *in court*. Noone can promise that. But if you can get them to settle before court, that is 100%

Charge back, talk to your CC provider, show them the T and C and that this is meerely an invoice and does not fit under the definitions

ireallycantyodel

So I finally got the NTD in the post.

First of all, they addressed it to Mr. and not Mrs. Not sure if that's enough to appeal..haha
Anyhoo - before I start the whole malarkey of appealing I just wanted to know your opinion on this. As you know, this was for a hire car. So I have to deal with a £40 charge from Europcar on top of this. I have a few questions - I am reading and reading but some of the information provided is rather contradictory.

1. In my last post it was suggested to chargeback my credit card for the £40. But at the same time it was also suggested to threaten with small claims court as Europcar are unlikely to accept my appeal - but that would only make sense if I don't do a chargeback. If anything, they will threaten me with court proceedings if I do a charge back. The letter states I should have appealed this within 14 days which have now passed but I guess I can still do a chargeback...?

2. The Edna Basher thread (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5881338/pcn-for-lease-car-vehicle) seems to be only for the fleet manager/hire firm to provide the name of the hiree..or am I overlooking something? Europcar have already passed my details on - Am I right in the assumption that my entire appeal should be based on me saying that I don't know who the driver was rather than the actual reason? If so - can someone point me to the correct template?

3. The NTD states I need to appeal through https://www.myparkingcharge.co.uk. However, there is also an address for VCS. Am I right that I should use the online appeal as stated in the Newbie Thread?

4. I read through quite a lot of threads and I remember that the BPA itself states that fines should not be higher than the council's (which is £30) and that markings should be applied if people repeatedly park in the wrong spot (or something to that effect). This particular spot seems to be a great money making scheme as I was told by the tenant (Iceland) that they have this problem every single day and people keep complaining about the PCN's they are getting
Am I remembering correctly as I cannot find the threads now :-( However, is this even relevant in my case?

5. The Newbie Thread by the way states: In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

But here I was advised to tell Europcar to pass my details on. This is why I am so confused.

6. It also says:

Here are some examples of a successful first appeal. These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (pretty much ALWAYS!) failed to send the required documents to the hirer (you) with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5703794

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69859059#Comment_69859059

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69767583#Comment_69767583


So they do actually only have 21 days (working days or days??) after they have been informed of my details? It seems that people weren't quite sure about this when I asked previously.
However, Europcar told them on or before 20th December but I didn't get the NTD until the 19th January. Can someone clarify?

7. They are a BPA member, since this was a hire car I don't suppose the usual BPA appeal applies here? Or do I have to use this template?


Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,


You can see the pictures online but they did not include them with the NTD

8, Here are a few more pictures of the car park days later by the way. Not sure if this is even relevant for my appeal. But the point is that there are no markings to show that this is a turning bay for lorries and that people parked here and then it looks like a normal parking space (I even thought that the PPC put their own cars there to make it exactly look like that but I would have a hard time proving that). Without the cars it doesn't look like a parking spot to me. But on that day it was dark and rainy and a row of cars was already parked there. Unfortunately they had all conveniently gone when the guy took the pictures. When I took the pictures below I asked several people on site what they thought and they all thought it was ok to park there (with the row of cars already parked there):

KeithP

1.You have 120 days to request a Chargeback.

Read this MSE article:

Visa, Mastercard & Amex Chargeback

2. There is more than one appeal template by Edna Basher in the newbies thread. You want the one that isn't for fleet managers. Yes, you are right the whole point is that the keeper cannot be liable if they have not complied with POFA and they do not have proof that the keeper was driving.

3. You must appeal using the method stated. The PPC can, and will, ignore appeals sent by any other method.

4. 5. 6. 7. and 8. are not relevant at this time.

ireallycantyodel

KeithP wrote: »

1.You have 120 days to request a Chargeback.

Read this MSE article:

Visa, Mastercard & Amex Chargeback

2. There is more than one appeal template by Edna Basher in the newbies thread. You want the one that isn't for fleet managers. Yes, you are right the whole point is that the keeper cannot be liable if they have not complied with POFA and they do not have proof that the keeper was driving.

3. You must appeal using the method stated. The PPC can, and will, ignore appeals sent by any other method.

4. 5. 6. 7. and 8. are not relevant at this time.

Thank you for your quick reply, can you confirm if this is the correct one?

---

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice issued to me.

I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why your Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

Given that Vehicle Control Services Ltd has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


Yours faithfully,

---

It doesn't say anything about asking for proof of being the driver, is that correct? Also, the letter states "Notice to Driver" not "Notice to Hirer" - does that matter?

KeithP

Yes, that's the one.

Just checking... with the new NtD, you didn't get copies of the hire documents that they are supposed to send?

ireallycantyodel

KeithP wrote: »

Yes, that's the one.

Just checking... with the new NtD, you didn't get copies of the hire documents that they are supposed to send?

No I didn't - they also took longer than 21 days - which after some reading seems to be relevant as outlined in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

(see Par 14, 2b)

There was a post about this earlier

KeithP

OK, I would just send that appeal for now.

Save the rest for later.

Hopefully you won't need it.

ireallycantyodel

KeithP wrote: »

OK, I would just send that appeal for now.

Save the rest for later.

Hopefully you won't need it.

Ah I have stumbled across an issue on the online form - these beggars force me to choose on the of the pre-selected options, otherwise I am unable to submit...Conveniently none of these cover my appeal reason and the letter states I need to use this appeal process in order to carry on any future claims against the company.
Here are the options:







They are trying to make it as difficult as possible

By the way - am I right in my assumption that they cannot force me to name the driver?

KeithP

How about: This vehicle has never been owned by me

Followed by: I was the Vehicle's Hirer...

But maybe wait to see what others say.
I'm a bit uncomfortable with the phrase "when the contravention occured(sic)".
Seems to be acknowledging that a contravention took place.

Yes, you are right, they cannot force you to name the driver, but that won't stop them asking you, with all sorts of threats if you don't comply.