UPDATE 29/01 I need some help with a parking fine from myparkingcharge.co.uk for a hired vehicle

Coupon-mad

Although I thought that maybe it I fill in their online form and I contact Europcar with proof of that, they might refuse to give them the details?

Don't ask Europcar NOT to 'transfer liability'. The whole point is, you want them to go through the usual motions (and yes they will charge you but you could then dispute that later).

You need Europcar to name you and then the PCN becomes completely within your control to appeal and defend later, and the PPC will not be able to ever revert to Europcar after that - so no later nasty surprise that they've gone & paid it.

(by the way, there are already yellow lines for delivery vans but they only chose to mark the parking space right on the fringes of the area for the delivery vans, but not the turning space)

Get some photos now ready for your court defence, and try to go at a busy time so you are not taking pics at a time when there are no other cars parked adjacent or in that 'space'. You want damning evidence, and you know the appeal will not work and so you have plenty of time to get the evidence you will need for court later.

This will be the fact that your case will turn upon, so you would do well to take pics on more than one day/week to show the pattern of parking and what it really looks like to a driver as it is unmarked and when other cars are alongside it looks like any other legitimate space.

ireallycantyodel

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Don't ask Europcar NOT to 'transfer liability'. The whole point is, you want them to go through the usual motions (and yes they will charge you but you could then dispute that later).

You need Europcar to name you and then the PCN becomes completely within your control to appeal and defend later, and the PPC will not be able to ever revert to Europcar after that - so no later nasty surprise that they've gone & paid it.

Get some photos now ready for your court defence, and try to go at a busy time so you are not taking pics at a time when there are no other cars parked adjacent or in that 'space'. You want damning evidence, and you know the appeal will not work and so you have plenty of time to get the evidence you will need for court later.

This will be the fact that your case will turn upon, so you would do well to take pics on more than one day/week to show the pattern of parking and what it really looks like to a driver as it is unmarked and when other cars are alongside it looks like any other legitimate space.

Ok I understand, that make sense (hopefully to a judge, too :-))

Any advice on what to do if Europcar do pay up despite my email and charge me for it? Do I have grounds to charge back and dispiute this as they shouldn't have paid?

Coupon-mad

Yes, and clearly your email will be good evidence that you forbade them from paying this scam and told them you will handle it and that they just need to transfer liability as per the BVRLA guidelines.

ireallycantyodel

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes, and clearly your email will be good evidence that you forbade them from paying this scam and told them you will handle it and that they just need to transfer liability as per the BVRLA guidelines.

So, I still have not received a letter - however, Europcar got back to me regarding my request to NOT pay for the penalty. This is what they wrote:

Good afternoon



Thank you for contacting Europar customer service on 2nd, 2018. I apologize for the length of time it has taken to respond to you.



I have conducted an extensive investigation into your claim in reference to the pending traffic violation invoice. I have searched my penalty charge notice screen used the rental agreement number, as well as your drivers identification and the pending PCN number you sent and can advise that at this time I have not been able to find the penalty from the authority.



However if we do receive a notice the 40.00GBP administration fee will automatically apply. I have taken the liberty to send you a copy of our terms and conditions of hire as it relates to fines.



I trust this satisfies your query.


So what they are saying is basically, even if they do not pay, they will charge me £ 40.00 for just passing my address on - They also did not agree to NOT pay. Mmmhhh.. how would that work? That's a bit steep. I also looked at the attached T&C's where it says:

Europcar may also charge You for various charges
and fees that Europcar will have to apply relating
to incidents that may have occurred during the
Hire Period and/or how You used the Vehicle.
The prices (inclusive of VAT) of these charges and
fees are listed in the Recommended Tariffs Guide
attached to Your confirmation email (if a rental
reservation is made online) and available from
Europcar station and/or on the Europcar
website. .
Such charges and fees include without limitation:
o Administration fees for handling fines or
tolls. Please note that such administration
fees are payable in addition to the fine or toll
to which it relates and You are fully liable to
pay such fines or tolls



If You have incurred extra costs such as fine or caused
Damages to the Vehicle identified without your presence
Europcar will charge You these costs and the applicable
administration fees at a later date, all these
administrative fees (damage management fees, fines
administrative fees), when Europcar becomes aware of
them.
In this respect, You will have a fourteen (14) days period
starting from the date of sending (by email or regular
letter) of the notification of billing to challenge and justify
not being the author of the fees. In case of no objection
or justification from You within the aforementioned
period, the amount of these fees will be charged.



But as we have already established this is not a fine - also, I am a bit surprised that the Private Parking Company has not sent out a letter yet to Europcar. Is the 27 day window inlcuding or excluding weekends and bank holidays?

ireallycantyodel

I have just emailed them back saying:

Dear xxx
Thank you very much for your reply.

However, you have not confirmed to me that Europcar will refuse to pay this invoice on my behalf. Can you please confirm and put a not on my account that this will not be paid? I have also read your terms & conditions.
It says as follows:

Europcar may also charge You for various charges
and fees that Europcar will have to apply relating
to incidents that may have occurred during the
Hire Period and/or how You used the Vehicle.
The prices (inclusive of VAT) of these charges and
fees are listed in the Recommended Tariffs Guide
attached to Your confirmation email (if a rental
reservation is made online) and available from
Europcar station and/or on the Europcar
website. .
Such charges and fees include without limitation:
o Administration fees for handling fines or
tolls. Please note that such administration
fees are payable in addition to the fine or toll
to which it relates and You are fully liable to
pay such fines or tolls

And


If You have incurred extra costs such as fine or caused
Damages to the Vehicle identified without your presence
Europcar will charge You these costs and the applicable
administration fees at a later date, all these
administrative fees (damage management fees, fines
administrative fees), when Europcar becomes aware of
them.
In this respect, You will have a fourteen (14) days period
starting from the date of sending (by email or regular
letter) of the notification of billing to challenge and justify
not being the author of the fees. In case of no objection
or justification from You within the aforementioned
period, the amount of these fees will be charged.



I would like to point out that "fines" from Private Parking Companies are Parking Charge Notices (aka an invoice). Your T&C's only cover Fines and Tolls. I am therefore disputing your right to charge me a £40.00 fee, let alone pay it on my behalf. These are not fines in a legal sense as private parking companies are not allowed to "fine" anybody.

Please confirm if you are following my request not to pay this on my behalf but are merely passing on my details as otherwise, I will not have an opportunity to dispute this invoice.

Kind Regards

ireallycantyodel

I have finally received the dreaded letter from Europcar.

They invoiced me £ 40 for the privilege of passing my details on and sent me a copy of the PCN Notice. I have 14 days to pay a reduced rate of £60 or £100 thereafter.

I have since been back a few times but unfortunately the car park wasn't so full as to take a picture of it in the same state as it was when I parked there.

I have reasons to believe that they keep this area unmarked on purpose as they know it makes them money.

Anyhoo - I am happy to challenge Europcar (as you can see the T&C's in my post above, there is no mentioning of invoices, just fines, which a private company cannot issue). Not sure if I can get away with this though. Searching the forum for a template letter but not sure if there is a more up to date one.

Do I have to wait until the actual PCN arrives in my post from the parking company directly?

Have a look at the letters attached.

Redx

yes you wait for the NTH from the PPC , then you appeal it following the edna basher advice, as hirer/keeper (day to day keeper)


also bear in mind that the PPC is not an "authority" and does not issue a "penalty" and it was "not a traffic violation" either


so Europcar got that totally wrong

ireallycantyodel

Yes I agree but convincing Europcar is a different thing alltogether..haha

I am probably not the first one to query their charges....

If anyone has a tip for me, I would be happy to hear it.

My plan is to write to them to tell them that I will be challenging the PCN as I have grounds to believe that the charge is unfair - hence I would not be liable to either pay the PCN nor the fee Europcar has invoiced me. Also, the fact that this is not a fine but an invoice means that according to their own T&C's it is not included in the type of fines I would be charged for when passing on my address.

Agree? (Sorry, English is not my first language - if anyone knows a more eloquent way of expressing this, please fire away)

Redx

I would not be using the word "fine" at all, dont even go there, dont open the door

you should be telling them that its not in the contract (its a civil matter and not a traffic violation and not a penalty either) and you want the BVRLA to mediate, plus you will oppose any charge on any card or cards

the fact that they have told the PPC who the hirer was is enough and they have known this since POFA2012 came in , in the year 2012, so not new

ireallycantyodel

Hello my friends - In the meantime I was able to obtain some photos from the car park showing the same issue I had mainly that a row of cars were parked in that area which made it look like a parking area. Many people I approached were just as confused as myself.

On the other hand though, I have still not heard from the PPC - How much time do they have to send me the PCN once they have obtained my address from the hire company?