Window replacement: deed of variation / planning permission

TTTTTT

Hi all!

First time poster but hopefully some of the experts on here can help me out!

I bought a leasehold property in December 2017 for which Wandsworth council are the freeholder. The property is a first floor maisonette. The windows are quite dilapidated and therefore we would like to replace them all. Sounds simple enough but we have hit a couple of snags:

1. Obtaining freeholder permission
Our lease states that we are "not to make any structural alterations or structural additions to the flat.... without the previous consent in writing of the Council... and to pay the Council's reasonable costs in connection with any license issued in connection with this sub clause".

As such, they are telling us we need to get a deed of variation, at a cost of £450.

Our property has different windows to all those around it. After looking into this, it seems that a previous owner of our property replaced all the windows and changed the style and openings of them a while back. If the windows have been changed by a lessee previously, is it possible that a deed of variation already exists for this that would cover our work? Or do we need a new deed for each alteration to the windows? It is also possible that the former occupier sought no permission from the council when making replacements (more on that later), in which case I assume we are liable for this fee.

An additional requirement of the council is that in order to be approved, the new windows must be in similar style and have the same openings as adjacent properties. This is fine with us as it will improve the attractiveness of the property, although it brings us onto our second snag:

2. Planning permission
Because we are in a conservation area and are changing the style of our windows, we have been told we need planning permission before we can begin works, which will cost £206.

I have enquired whether planning permission on our property was obtained for the previous change in windows, however there is no record of this. As such, it seems like the earlier occupier changed the style without permission and now we want to change the style back, we must get permission.

In our conservation areas' management strategy, it states that leaseholders should be encouraged to restore original features of their properties where possible (which is what we are trying to do). Is anyone aware of a way in which planning fees can be waived in circumstances where the applicant is acting in the interests of the council?


Ultimately, the two "snags" are both understandable independently, however I feel slightly put out having to pay £656 to the council before I even consider the cost of the windows themselves! It also feels like I have been caught in a catch-22 where I have the freeholder telling me I have to change the style of the windows (at a cost of £450) and then planning telling me that if I change the style of the windows I need to get permission (at a cost of £206).

Does anyone have experience of similar situations? Does this seem above board and I just need to suck it up, or do I have any escape from these fees?

G_M

The Deed of Variation seems strange. What aspect of the lease needs changing?


Are you sure the freeholders are not charging for granting permission and possibly for their surveyor to review and approve your plans?

Any change to the windows in a conservation area is likely to need consent, for which there will be a fee (if if denied!).

Whether permission was previously granted or not, the change you are making needs to be reviewed by the Planners and approved/denied.

Of course, you could make a complaint to the Planners about the existing windows on the grounds that the required Planning consent was not obtained. This is usually done by disgruntled neighbours rather than the owners of a property, but......

If the Planners conclude that the existing windows were installed without consent, in a CA, and do not conform to their requirements, they could issue you with an enforcement notice to change them back........
:rotfl:

TTTTTT

Thanks for your speedy response!!

The wording on the email I received from the freeholder specifically referred to it as a deed of variation, however I think what we might actually be paying for is the "license issued in connection with this sub clause".

My main issue with this fee is that it seems very steep! I know lawyers are expensive but charging each leaseholder in the borough £450 for a standard license every time they want to change their windows must be a real money maker!

I'm not arguing against having to get planning permission, especially given that it is in a conservation area, however your idea there is genius! Although I think all complaints have to be raised within a set period which has no doubt expired by now! Any way to save a couple of quid:rotfl:

eddddy

When did the area become a conservation area, and when were the windows previously changed?

If the windows were changed before the area became a conservation area, no planning rules have been broken.

And weirdly, if that's the case, you could probably replace your current windows like-for-like (i.e. keeping the non-original style) without planning consent.

But f you want to change the style, even if it's back to the original, you will need conservation area planning consent.


But freeholder consent is a different issue.

If a previous leaseholder changed the windows without freeholder consent, you might have to get retrospective consent (which could theoretically be refused).

But since you want to change them again, I guess you'll just need consent for that.


It's surprising that a lease variation is required - I wonder if you spoke to a junior person, who was misunderstanding/misquoting a list of requirements for alterations?

G_M

TTTTTT wrote: »

..your idea there is genius! Although I think all complaints have to be raised within a set period which has no doubt expired by now!

Not sure that's true in a CA but you'd need to check the rules. Dig around on the council's website.


There should also be a section on your specific CA and what is/isn't allowable with/without consent, as every CA is different.

eddddy

TTTTTT wrote: »

My main issue with this fee is that it seems very steep! I know lawyers are expensive but charging each leaseholder in the borough £450 for a standard license every time they want to change their windows must be a real money maker!

Actually, the law doesn't allow this to be a money maker!

The law says the fee they charge must be 'reasonable'. i.e. It must reflect the work they have to do and/or their costs.

So if they insist that £450 is payable, ask for a breakdown of the cost.

They might say, for example, that they have to pay a surveyor a fee of £350, and do 2 hours of admin at £50 per hour (which would make it reasonable).

But if they say, for example, that all they have to do just 1 hour of admin - £450 is very likely to be 'unreasonable'.

AlexMac

Sympathies. I think the problem is, that, as an honest, law abiding citizen, you have already alerted the Council to your intentions, and they are probably within their rights to charge you whatever their going rate is for a permission in line with your lease. In fact, any officers of a Tory Council as "red in tooth and claw" as Wandsworth would probably be criticised by their Ratepayers and elected Councillors if they did anything other than grab every income they can.

The Planning issue is probably also non-negotiable. Even if, like me, you live in a Conservation Area where the Council has not removed Permitted Development Rights under an "Article 4 Direction" (so I didn't need PP for my house's new windows recently) I think that many Councils demand PP in Flats in block so you don't get a messy mis-match (yes- silly, I know, cos that's what you already have in effect as you describe it).

That's the bad news...

But the good news is, that, if you hadn't asked, and even if you have, you'd probably get away with just doing it without permission. Our Council in SE (as opposed to SW) London, just doesn't have the staff or resources to enforce what are frankly trivial breaches. I and my neighbours have reported far more serious failures to comply with Planning conditions imposed on specific local re-builds (dangerous noise & vibration, heavy lorry movements outside authorised hours...) to no effect, and when another neighbour complained about an industrial scale steel chimney on a house next door, the reply was along the lines that "they should really have applied for permission but we'd have agreed it anyway...." with no application in the subsequent year to date!

In another CA are, my builder (who scrupulously obeys important Regs) was amazed that I should even think of seeking Planning permission to replace crummy old 1980s Crittal steel windows with architecturally appropriate timber sashes.

I own a flat like your as a BTL, and I was lucky that the Council freeholder replaced all the old windows with decent UPVC ones a few years ago, and only charges me at cost with a reasonable and modes admin fee; so I benefitted from their economies of scale purchasing muscle. I assume your Council has no such generous intent (but I do live in a lefty area with a brilliant relationship with its leaseholders.

After that job, which also included UPVC doors for the Council-owned flat, mine was the only one left with a crummy old warped timber front door. So I simply replaced it via my own contractor; no way was I going to ask 'em; they've got much bigger stuff to worry about.

And, surprise surprise, no one walks around the estate counting front doors or hinting at enforcement.

Which gives you the dillemma; do it right, or do it well?

Even though you may not respect my more cavalier approach, I bet you'd get away with it, although I guess it could get tricky if you have to scaffold the block (do you need to; or can windows go in without?). No Council jobsworth (an I used to be one) is likely to notice or enforce, as you hint has already been the case with the last replacement job.

So I know what I'd do, even after alerting my plans. Leave it til next Spring, then go ahead. In the unlikely event they even notice, they ain't going to Determine your Lease (chuck you out). And I suspect that the worst Planning issue would be the need to seek retrospective assent if they did notice it within the 4-year enforcement period.

As regards

TTTTTT wrote: »

...It also feels like I have been caught in a catch-22 where I have the freeholder telling me I have to change the style of the windows (at a cost of £450) and then planning telling me that if I change the style of the windows I need to get permission (at a cost of £206).

...is any individual Council Officer actually INTRUCTING you to change to windows? Or are you putting two and two together?

Either way, as I say, I would front it out.

Another issue will be what you admit to when you come to sell. But assuming they look like all the others in the block (timber? UPVC?) and you get FENSA or whatever, I'm sure you can front that out too. Your purchaser would have to be paranoid to back off because the windows look perfect.

Good luck with your ethical dillemma

Tom99

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I don't think windows would count as a structural alteration so I would not think you need consent under the clause you quote.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if you did, it would be just written permission to proceed not a deed of variation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Have you checked the lease to see whether the windows are within the property demised to you and therefore your responsibility. With leasehold flats sometimes the windows are included in the demise and sometimes they remain what is effectively common parts.[/FONT]

TTTTTT

eddddy wrote: »

When did the area become a conservation area, and when were the windows previously changed?

If the windows were changed before the area became a conservation area, no planning rules have been broken.

And weirdly, if that's the case, you could probably replace your current windows like-for-like (i.e. keeping the non-original style) without planning consent.

But f you want to change the style, even if it's back to the original, you will need conservation area planning consent.


But freeholder consent is a different issue.

If a previous leaseholder changed the windows without freeholder consent, you might have to get retrospective consent (which could theoretically be refused).

But since you want to change them again, I guess you'll just need consent for that.


It's surprising that a lease variation is required - I wonder if you spoke to a junior person, who was misunderstanding/misquoting a list of requirements for alterations?

Thanks. I believe it has been a conservation area for quite a long time, however the management strategy was only implemented in 2009 so you might be correct and the changes could have been made without permission.

I will make sure to follow up with the freeholder before paying any fees. I have requested an example wording of what the deed of variation would say to try and help me understand! Unsurprisingly I haven't had a response back yet...

I am too new to post links, however if you google "alterations to a leasehold property wandsworth" and use the first link, it explains the process I am currently going through...

SmashedAvacado

1. The windows might actually not be part of your flat - they might be part of the freehold property. Have you checked? If they are part of the freehold rather than your leaseshold, then you have a right to ask for them to be repaired, but not to repair them yourself.

2. If the windows are part of your flat, then the document the council will want is a licence to alter - not a deed of variation. A £450 fee plus VAT is quite low.

3. On planning - you need to pay this. Its perfectly reasonable and fairly low.

TTTTTT

@AlexMac

Thanks very much for this post. I had certainly considered that perhaps I was being punished for "doing the right thing" and whether I am better off making the changes without permission... my only worry now is I have had a number of conversations with both planning and the management company, with a significant amount over email (paper trail...) so I would need to leave a considerable "cooling off" period before commencing.

So I guess the question is delay works for 6-8 months to avoid the fees and live with the concern it could come back to bite me, or just take it on the chin. Consider this a real lesson learned on being a goody-two-shoes.

In regards to your last point, we were told that we can only replace the windows if the new ones are in line with those in the properties adjacent to ours... which means they need to change. It's a bit of 2+2 but it's quite clear!