Window replacement: deed of variation / planning permission

TTTTTT

Tom99 wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I don't think windows would count as a structural alteration so I would not think you need consent under the clause you quote.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if you did, it would be just written permission to proceed not a deed of variation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Have you checked the lease to see whether the windows are within the property demised to you and therefore your responsibility. With leasehold flats sometimes the windows are included in the demise and sometimes they remain what is effectively common parts.[/FONT]

Thanks. Unfortunately under Wandsworth's standard leases they do count as structural alterations.

I am too new to post links, however if you google "alterations to a leasehold property wandsworth" and use the first link, it shows their basis for charging the fee.

Whilst the windows may form part of the freehold (which I need to check), as they are not broken, just old and tatty, are we able to request them to be replaced? I spoke to the council who said there are no plans for window replacements in our block in the next 5 years.

SmashedAvacado

If the windows form part of the freehold, then they are the landlord's responsibility. The definition of the property in your lease will confirm this. Not all leases in wandsworth will be the same. it is your lease that is important here.

It might be that the deed of variation is intended to change that so that the windows become your responsibility by becoming part of your demise. This is quite unusual and if not done carefully could have an SDLT implication so you might want to check with a lawyer that this isnt the case (as varying a lease to change the demise is considered to be a surrender and regrant and that would trigger a new tax charge. Tread carefully.

TTTTTT

SmashedAvacado wrote: »

If the windows form part of the freehold, then they are the landlord's responsibility. The definition of the property in your lease will confirm this. Not all leases in wandsworth will be the same. it is your lease that is important here.

It might be that the deed of variation is intended to change that so that the windows become your responsibility by becoming part of your demise. This is quite unusual and if not done carefully could have an SDLT implication so you might want to check with a lawyer that this isnt the case (as varying a lease to change the demise is considered to be a surrender and regrant and that would trigger a new tax charge. Tread carefully.

Perhaps someone could help me make sense of the following...

The Flat is defined as

"All of the flat shown edged in red... including for the purpose of obligation as well as grant:-

(i) the sashes casements (as appropriate) and the glass in the windows of the Flat and the external doors to the Flat

...

(iii) the Council's fixtures and fittings sanitary apparatus and appurtenances installed in or fixed to the Flat EXCEPT AND RESERVING from the Flat the window frames and the external door frames and the main structural parts of the block...."

To me this reads as though the casements and the glass are our responsibility, but the frames are still part of the freehold?

If so you could be correct, although you would hope they would have communicated that this is what the deed of variation is for! Currently they have just said that we need a deed of variation and it will cost £450, when I have pushed for further information it has not been readily forthcoming!

Tom99

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That confirms the windows are within your demise.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Therefore what's requires is as per your website link a Licence for Structural Alterations (or Deed of Consent), cost £450.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Any reference to a deed of variation is just a misquote.[/FONT]

SmashedAvacado

Tom99 wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That confirms the windows are within your demise.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Therefore what's requires is as per your website link a Licence for Structural Alterations (or Deed of Consent), cost £450.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Any reference to a deed of variation is just a misquote.[/FONT]

I am not sure how you can come to have this level of certainty because it clearly states that the frames are not included.

"EXCEPT AND RESERVING from the Flat the window frames and the external door frames and the main structural parts of the block...."

Nick_C

I used to live in a small Leasehold block of 21 Flats. I was the last flat to replace the original windows with uPVC double glazing. I took great care to match the style of the neighbouring flats.

One awkward neighbour complained to the Council and I received a letter telling me to apply for retrospective planning permission, which I did and which was granted. I spoke to the Planning Officer who was very surprised that I had completed the Application. He said he wouldn't have taken any further action, and sympathised with me over my awkward neighbour.

In your position I would go ahead and just make the changes. The worst that can happen is you might have to seek permission retrospectively. But if you have decent neighbours they will most likely be pleased at the improvement. It sounds like the current windows were installed without permission and whoever did that got away with it.

But as a general rule, new windows in a flat in a block may require Planning Permission.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/21/flats_and_maisonettes/5

SmashedAvacado

If / when you come to sell, you will be asked about permissions. If you didnt get the requisite permissions it could cause your sale to fall through or it could cost you some indemnity insurance and a lot of stress. The costs noted are not particularly high. I would do as my landlord asks once i have clarified what, if anything, the deed of variation is for.

TTTTTT

My preference at the moment is to keep it above board and not worry about hidden costs at a later date.

Saying that, the bottom of the Wandsworth website linked earlier states:

"Our Solicitor will draw up the necessary Deed and complete all negotiations with your solicitor. Permission is only granted at the point the Deed is completed (this means signed/sealed and dated by both the leaseholder and the council and any mortgagee) and no works should be undertaken prior to completion of the relevant Deed and/or Licence."

I have managed to find a previous license for alterations we were given as part of the purchase process for works completed in 2010 and it is a relatively simple and short (4 page) legal document setting out terms for the works. Would a solicitor even be required or is this something people would review themselves? Does anyone know the rough cost a solicitor would charge for this?

Additionally, is the mortgagee likely to charge a fee for reviewing/signing said document?

Who knew changing some windows would be so much work.....

Mokka

I had a lot of problems with windows in a council leasehold flat so I know exactly what you are going through.

It is pretty standard in ex LA flats for the freeholder to own frames and leaseholder glass of the windows.

I am guessing your flat had been originally acquired from the council under Right to Buy. So although you have not acquired it yourself through RTB it is still governed by RTB rules laid out in Housing Act Part V. These rules state the freeholder is responsible for all structural repairs. THere was a court case a while ago in which it was decided that windows are part of the structure of the building. Since then council freeholders have responsibility for window repairs causing endless annoyance and grief to leaseholders, who usually cannot understand how is it possible they cannot change windows in their own flat, wait for the freeholder to do it and pay for it (usually higher than going rate fee) even if they did not want the change. The freeholder can chose any style they want without you having any say.

What is important to understand is that the Council as a freeholder and as the Planning Authority are like two different organisations. Even the Housing Department has to apply for planning permission to change windows in a CA. They would then recharge you.

Regarding the Deed and its cost it is extortionate. You cannot assume- sadly- that your freeholder council is acting within the law and not trying to take you for a ride.

I cannot see how replacing windows could be considered a proper alteration- you are not removing walls or adding extensions.

If the windows are in disrepair the freeholder has duty to repair them, and if this is uneconomical- replace them. As said before they would recharge you for this work.

If the windows are not that bad you can say you want to replace them as an improvement to your property. Usually the freeholder is not permitted by law from preventing you to improve your property.

Freeholder is usually allowed to charge for issuing permission for you to go ahead with the work (they still own the frames, outside walls etc), but are only allowed to charge what is reasonable. If they are asking for £450 I would take the matter to the First Tier Tribunal, which would set the fair fee. Usually they look at how much work is involved: if one person would take 20 minutes to deal with your application and they get £30 per hour, then you should pay £10.

I would advise to do some reading on leasehold law now that you have a leasehold flat. It might be worthwhile looking into buying a freehold- it is not as expensive as people think. You could then give yourself a free lease extension. And no need to pay for any freeholder consents in the future

Nick_C

SmashedAvacado wrote: »

If / when you come to sell, you will be asked about permissions. If you didnt get the requisite permissions it could cause your sale to fall through or it could cost you some indemnity insurance and a lot of stress.

When I sold my flat, I wasnt asked for proof of Planning Permission (although this information is on line), just a FENSA certificate. Other Leaseholders where I lived sold flats where the windows had been replaced without Planning Permission.