Question about TV licence

[Deleted User]

dosh37 wrote: »

I would like to know how the TV licence money is actually distributed.
We are told you have to pay for a licence if you watch live TV - even if you don't watch BBC channels.
It seems to me that if all the money ends up going to the BBC to pay for things like Chris Evans £1.6 million salary, endless repeats of Top Gear etc. then there is a fishy smell in the air.

No fishy smell, just no adverts on BBC ( apart from the BBC plugging their own offerings ). Commercial TV steals your time from your life trying to sell something to you that you do not want, or worse still , try and get you addicted to gambling. The number of ads on gambling shown all over on commercial TV has more than a fishy smell , it reeks to high heaven.
It time they were all stopped for good "its all in the in-play " as old Ray Winstone keeps saying

[Deleted User]

Cornucopia wrote: »

What's incorrect about it? You need a Licence to watch or record traditional TV channels, their internet live streamed equivalents or BBC iPlayer. That's the rule in the simplest possible terms.


Or perhaps they come from countries that don't have a TV Licence and they therefore have no idea that such a thing could even exist? Since we've seen how the legal requirements for watching streamed content from overseas are a little hazy, a lot of those prosecution must be unsafe.


I don't think that interrogating someone in their own home is either clever or gentle, and what's more is that depending on what you mean by "interrogate", it's probably illegal. (The supporting references for the HRA already strongly suggest that it is unlawful).

BBC and their contractors have a right to enquire with the public , on their doorstep, not in their homes, if they possess a TV licence. They are "cold callers " and cold calling is nt an illegal practice anywhere in the UK. You cannot stop cold calling, I ve been doing it legally for 20 years without any problems
The conversations that Capita would have on the householders doorstep could be along the lines of nothing more than an enquiry as to the status of their TV viewing habits.
That is all that is needed for the public to let slip that they view live scheduled broadcasts at some time, even if its only for an hour a week.
Its tough on the people who come here to live and work if they fall foul of the TV licence laws .Its no excuse at all to say that they did nt know or understand the laws.They learn the hard way then
That is exactly the same excuse that some Eastern Europeans use when they are caught having a riverside barbie on roast Mute Swan or Carp because over there its legal

Cornucopia

Houbara wrote: »

BBC and their contractors have a right to enquire with the public , on their doorstep, not in their homes, if they possess a TV licence. They are "cold callers " and cold calling is nt an illegal practice anywhere in the UK. You cannot stop cold calling, I ve been doing it legally for 20 years without any problems

Not so. You work in the Utilities industry, and you have access rights defined in the Utilities Act, and in Common Law. Utilities companies and their subcontractors are not public authorities and are not bound directly by the the Human Rights Act, but the BBC is a public authority in this respect, and they are bound directly by HRA requirements.

The BBC is required to abide by Article 8 of the Human Rights Act - the right to privacy. As part of this, it is forbidden from interfering with the privacy of citizens (which could conceivably include both doorstepping and its stated intention to search inside homes) except "in accordance with the law". That is a critical clause in the legislation and creates a raft of obligations upon public authorities - to ensure that their actions are warranted by law, to ensure that the law is specific and explicit in respect of their actions, to ensure that the Public is made reasonably aware of the legal and practical implications (which should be clear and understandable), and to ensure that the provisions are proportionate and proof against arbitrariness.

This is fairly readable: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/human_rights_human_lives_a_guide_for_public_authorities.pdf

Relevant comments on pages: 32-38, 64-72.

The conversations that Capita would have on the householders doorstep could be along the lines of nothing more than an enquiry as to the status of their TV viewing habits.

The BBC already accepts that their enforcement activities are in-scope of Article 8, so there is no need to discuss whether they are or not.

Its tough on the people who come here to live and work if they fall foul of the TV licence laws .Its no excuse at all to say that they did nt know or understand the laws.They learn the hard way then

In the general case, yes. In the specific case where BBC-TVL activities are believed to be unlawful, then no. In case it's not obvious from our previous discussions, I believe that breaking the law to enforce the law is the worst kind of moral bankruptcy.

Cornucopia

Houbara wrote: »

No fishy smell, just no adverts on BBC ( apart from the BBC plugging their own offerings ). Commercial TV steals your time from your life trying to sell something to you that you do not want...

More and more, commercial TV is about offering you the choice between content with and without ads. I'd be delighted if the BBC went the same way, and there would be no need for the footsoldiers of televisual enforcement.

...or worse still , try and get you addicted to gambling. The number of ads on gambling shown all over on commercial TV has more than a fishy smell , it reeks to high heaven.
It time they were all stopped for good "its all in the in-play " as old Ray Winstone keeps saying

I'd be happy to see such limitations on advertising as the Government deems appropriate. I doubt that banning advertising would see the end of gambling though, and I don't think that TV advertising is "trying ... [to] get you addicted to gambling".

[Deleted User]

Think I ve told you this before
.99% of all utility cold callers ( with a small percentage of advance appointments ) are done without the backing of a court warrant which are only obtained as a last resort if a criminal act of theft of gas/electric is suspected. Theft of energy includes those who will not pay for their energy. We have in the background an implied right of access but only by a court warrant
I personally have only entered properties a handful of times along with holders of Magistrates warrants in 20 years..Rest of the time I m cold calling and occasionally getting accused of harassment, same as Capita employees. Thats how it is nowadays.
British Courts do not have to follow HRA article 8 anyway, we have only to take account of them. That is not the same thing,..
So far they have not cottoned on to the dreadful HRA article 8 excuse to me yet , but I m sure if word gets round the gas and electric energy thieves will go for that .Some of our people lie and quote rights of access we do not have to get into properties.
Capita work on exactly the same principles . They can legally enter properties under warrant but rarely do. Probably because unlike the Utilities the stakes are much lower. We are fighting to get into properties who can owe us many thousands not a mere £150
Viewing unlicensed TV programs is a criminal offence . The BBCs agents, Capita have a right ,backed by the law, to cold call those who they suspect to be evading the TV licence. They work on exactly the same principles as the utilities who lose much more money than the BBC do to theft of energy and just as the Utilities do they pass on their losses onto the honest to pay.
Thats not fair on those that pay the £150 TV licence every year or pay for their gas and electric bills either
I want to see a robust licence evasion team at work ,and I do not care if occasionally one or two employees step over the line sometimes and end up on Youtube

Cornucopia

I'm quite happy to discuss this, as it is an interesting angle on a matter of public interest. However, since neither of us are experts, and the BBC has chosen not to do the obvious thing and resolve its lack of transparency, I doubt that we will reach either agreement or resolution.

Houbara wrote: »

Think I ve told you this before
.99% of all utility cold callers ( with a small percentage of advance appointments ) are done without the backing of a court warrant which are only obtained as a last resort if a criminal act of theft of gas/electric is suspected. Theft of energy includes those who will not pay for their energy. We have in the background an implied right of access but only by a court warrant

Yes, I understand how warrants work, and when they are used. You have misused the term "implied right of access", though. This is a minor common law "right" (not the same status as HRA rights), which provides in English law the basic principle by which someone may presume consent to approach your front door and state their business in good faith, and until such time as the presumed consent is removed or modified at the sole discretion of the householder, and as moderated by other interested parties like the Freeholder where that is not the Householder.

In the context of the Utilities industry subcontracting TVL work from Capita, I am uncomfortable that the implied right of access still applies, because (a) the "good faith" element is lacking, (b) in some cases, there is no intention for the staff member to "state their business" (and what is THEIR business, anyway?), and (c) because there already exists an effective mechanism by which written communication can be delivered to households, and indeed that mechanism is already in extensive use by TV Licensing.

If you think that this is all a matter of clearly defined and settled law, I would check out the rules and penalties pertaining to "No Cold Calling Zones", for example in the zone covering the entire Isle of Man.

edit: It seems we could both be wrong about Utility Company meter reading access. The official MSE rep from EON said this: "You can always refuse to let a meter reader in. If it helps, send them away and contact us. We'll be happy to arrange a visit at a mutually convenient time".

Rest of the time I m cold calling and occasionally getting accused of harassment, same as Capita employees. Thats how it is nowadays.

As far as I know, you are still using your Utilities Act powers to enter premises and read meters. If you are not using those powers, then you do not have authority to enter residential premises without the express permission of the Householder, and they can decline for any reason or none. It is their sole discretion (though in the context of Utilities supply, it may raise contractual issues if Meter access is repeatedly refused).

In seeking that permission to enter, you have the implied right to approach their front door, and state your business, unless that right has already been modified or removed, for example by a notice affixed to the premises or sent to the Utilities company in advance. It is also possible to do this with TV Licensing (with certain caveats).

British Courts do not have to follow HRA article 8 anyway, we have only to take account of them. That is not the same thing,..

This is not true (and self-evidently so). The UK's higher courts are very much making judgements on the basis of HRA rights. We've seen this very publicly in the recent Judicial Review over the ability of non-married persons to receive Widowed Parents' Allowance, which was based in part on Article 14 (protection from discrimination).

The lower courts do not generally take HRA arguments directly. If a matter had a significant HRA issue, it would need to be taken on appeal to a higher court.

So far they have not cottoned on to the dreadful HRA article 8 excuse to me yet , but I m sure if word gets round the gas and electric energy thieves will go for that

They might do, but they would be legally wrong to do so, and you would be legally wrong to accept it. Ultimately, though, if someone doesn't want a meter reader/revenue inspection inside their home then you are likely to need a Warrant to force the issue.

Whereas, with TV Licensing, a householder has an absolute right to refuse entry, and this is stated on the TVL website (and I would post a link if the site was not down at present).

Capita work on exactly the same principles

Well... They might TRY to work on the same principles, but being the representatives of a public authority, they ARE bound by HRA. So arguments using Article 8 ARE effective, and I have made such arguments successfully to them in the past. (Basically refusing them entry based solely on my Article 8 rights, which would make it legally difficult for them to obtain a Search Warrant).

They can legally enter properties under warrant but rarely do.

Yes, the number of TVL warrants in England and Wales is generally around 100 each year. Ultimately, it's not clear why the number is so low, since that is their only clear legal power.

The BBCs agents, Capita have a right ,backed by the law, to cold call those who they suspect to be evading the TV licence.

Not so. There is no such right, and it is subject to Article 14 anyway. The use of the word "right" in "implied right of access" is something of a misnomer, certainly in a plain English sense.

They work on exactly the same principles as the utilities...

Not so.

I want to see a robust licence evasion team at work ,and I do not care if occasionally one or two employees step over the line sometimes and end up on Youtube

I don't want to see ANY BBC contractors over-step the line. This is mere TV, and I want to see a situation in which (at the very least), the overall regime is proportionate and clearly in compliance with all relevant legal principles. One in which all staff are properly selected, trained and supervised to ensure that the law is respected in every engagement with the Public (once it has been firmly established what that law is).

Breaking the law (more serious laws like the HRA and Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice) in pursuit of minor crimes, and indeed, sometimes to bring prosecutions against innocent people, is an abomination.

Cornucopia

I think they are saying that TVL have decided to take down the site, as its approach to security was not fit for purpose.

giraffe69

I find paying online considerably better/more convenient than visits to the post office many years ago so I hope it is
a. made secure
b. up again quickly (it is up again as of now)

Cornucopia

The TV Licensing website is back up again, and states this:-

Enquiry officers do not have a legal right of entry to a person’s home without a search warrant, and if refused entry to premises they will end the visit.

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-administering-the-licence-fee-AB20

I'm not entirely happy with the tone of this, but it's clear what it means.

[Deleted User]

Not sure why you are quoting article 14 of the HRA.. That has a wide range of grounds to protect against discrimination which does nt appear to have anything to do with cold calling.eg sex,race,colour, language,religion etc whats that got to do with checking if you have paid for a TV licence and you view live scheduled TV broadcasts ?

Yes of course you can send Capita packing, they don t have any immediate rights of entry.
We are exactly the same and all the suppliers now inform their customers that they do not have to admit meter readers.Its been like that for years.We are ordered not to be pushy at all and suppliers will pay a customer £30 compensation if someone oversteps the mark and becomes impolite and the suppliers receive a complaint..
I still have a right of access due to everyone who wants to be supplied gas ,electric and water have to agree a contract. Its in every ones T and C s that they have to agree to let us in to inspect meters.
I quote British Gas " You agree to give us, our agents ( thats me ),transporter and network operator access to your property to work on the meters at any time in an emergency and at a reasonable time to inspect the meters " blah blah

The suppliers do not want to upset customers nowadays or they will switch suppliers so now they moderate their language about access to meters.This is because of the greatly increased use of online customer readings submitted by those who are diligent

The ability to easily deny access to meter reading inspection is the reason that theft of gas and abstracting electricity has gone through the roof in certain areas.In some rougher areas there will be 50% of occupiers refusing access and have done for years.

Not sure if TV licence evasion is on the increase, I suspect it is given the popularity of Netflix and Amazon Prime which together costs about the same as the TV licence.

Capita/TVL appear to be increasing their numbers who they order to attend the local Magistrate with an incredible number of 200,000 a year . 10% of Magistrates court appearances are taken up on this waste.
The BBC need to quickly either get a better way of trapping the thieves or of going to a subscription or even as Jeremy Corbyn suggested, a "digital licence "which covers everyone and would take into account those of low income who cannot afford it.