Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

kabayiri

andrewf75 wrote: »

I always read your posts agreeing with almost everything, but coming to the opposite conclusion on whether we’re better off in or out of the EU! I just come to the conclusion we stand a better chance of creating that sustainable future by working together even if the free movement idea is too much too soon. Especially when the UK on its own seems much less interested in creating long term sustainability than other European countries in favour of pro-business short termism, which is surely the root cause of high UK immigration, not free movement rules. At least Eastern Europeans coming here can go back when it suits, the Indians and Filipinos likely to replace them are much less likely to….

Well, it comes down to a trust issue in the EU then. Do you trust them to share your vision. Up to you.

Personally, I'm having some trust issues with our own government, so extending to the wider EU politicians is going go be problematic.

I really don't believe a super intelligent guy like George Soros would pump so much money into his Open Borders vision, unless he spotted real return in it....just like his ERM grab.

I don't think the UK ever stood a chance of steering the direction of the EU. We are quasi-Europeans, we have been for a long long time. That bit of water between changes our psyche. The USA links pull us in a different direction.

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm exactly the same. Same concerns but think we're much better addressing them as a contributing member of the EU than withdrawing.

The EU is just an experiment still.

The notion of nation state is a much longer running experiment, replicated across the globe.

Nobody else has copied the EU model.

All scientists know that some experiments fail, and the result is to try something new.

I don't think the EU structure was designed with reform in mind. It's become increasingly driven by dogma and ideology.

Herzlos

Experiments can also succeed. The EU has been reforming constantly since it's inception.

kabayiri wrote: »

Well, it comes down to a trust issue in the EU then. Do you trust them to share your vision. Up to you.

Personally, I'm having some trust issues with our own government, so extending to the wider EU politicians is going go be problematic.

I trust the EU an awful lot more than I trust Westminster.

I really don't believe a super intelligent guy like George Soros would pump so much money into his Open Borders vision, unless he spotted real return in it....just like his ERM grab.

You could say exactly the same about those pushing for Brexit - almost all of them seem like the kind of slimy businessfolk who are happy to screw over anyone to make money. JRM isn't in any way interested in making life better for the underclasses.

I don't think the UK ever stood a chance of steering the direction of the EU. We are quasi-Europeans, we have been for a long long time. That bit of water between changes our psyche. The USA links pull us in a different direction.

Except we have steered the direction of the EU - it's almost all moving in a way we agree with.
Superficially we've got a lot more in common with the US than the EU, but in reality it's the other way round. Despite the language barrier, we've got a lot more in common with Germany than the US.
We may have a different national psyche but that doesn't mean we're an ignored member of the EU. We're going to be a lot more ignored after we leave, if that's your concern.

andrewf75

kabayiri wrote: »

Well, it comes down to a trust issue in the EU then. Do you trust them to share your vision. Up to you.

Personally, I'm having some trust issues with our own government, so extending to the wider EU politicians is going go be problematic.

I really don't believe a super intelligent guy like George Soros would pump so much money into his Open Borders vision, unless he spotted real return in it....just like his ERM grab.

I don't think the UK ever stood a chance of steering the direction of the EU. We are quasi-Europeans, we have been for a long long time. That bit of water between changes our psyche. The USA links pull us in a different direction.

Well, given a choice between being pulled in the direction of France and Germany or the US, I’d certainly pick the former!

Its not that I particularly trust any politicians, but sticking together with countries that are on the whole less free market capitalist than us surely makes sense (from our viewpoint)

Moby

kabayiri wrote: »

Yes, we adjust. For me we do that by establishing what is important.

There are certain life qualities I put above monetary concerns. You don't have to share my values, but I will still hold them.

One of them is a responsibility to create a sustainable future. This means many things in practice.

Underfunding our communities, whilst encouraging new inward migration of a city the size of Leeds every single year, is not ensuring a sustainable future.

The EU-FOM dream is too ambitious; too soon; and will end in tears as EU states openly rebel against the political core. I don't want us to be dragged into the fallout. Inside the EU, we would be made to pay. We always have been the ones to pay.

I agree with you on much of this but the bogeyman isn't the EU....it's capitalism. We chose to let huge numbers of people in and apply a relaxed version of free movement to boost the economy in the mid 2000's. The EU diid not force us to do that. We are already part of 'the fallout' whether we like it or not. All France has to do is ignore agreements they have with us and let the migrants through. We choose to pay them to keep the border at Calais. We need their co-operation to enforce it.

Thrugelmir

andrewf75 wrote: »

Well, given a choice between being pulled in the direction of France and Germany or the US, I’d certainly pick the former!

Late in the day to worry about US influence. Already well ingrained in the UK.

kabayiri

Moby wrote: »

I agree with you on much of this but the bogeyman isn't the EU....it's capitalism. We chose to let huge numbers of people in and apply a relaxed version of free movement to boost the economy in the mid 2000's. The EU diid not force us to do that. We are already part of 'the fallout' whether we like it or not. All France has to do is ignore agreements they have with us and let the migrants through. We choose to pay them to keep the border at Calais. We need their co-operation to enforce it.

I wasn't offered a vote on capitalism though!

Maybe I saw Brexit vote as a disruptor. Certainly, a solid Remain vote would have reaffirmed those who believe in the EU integration vision.

I don't even claim that I have a well formed, or even clear of the kind of future society I would like here. I just don't like the current direction. It does not mean I would like the future direction any more. I don't really think we have an open discussion about what UK 2050 should look like.

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

...
You could say exactly the same about those pushing for Brexit - almost all of them seem like the kind of slimy businessfolk who are happy to screw over anyone to make money. JRM isn't in any way interested in making life better for the underclasses.
...

For me, JRM is a modern day Victorian.

He would definitely tap into cheap labour, of which there is still an abundance across the planet.

I'm willing to accept the downsides of such blatant capitalism, if I see it integrated into a plan to plough much of the reward into building a much better infrastructure here; one that is world class.

People do not like politics in China or HK. Yet it is undeniable that they are investing in truly world class infrastructure. Do you accept the rough to get the smooth?

We are sleepwalking into a consumerist society led by an Amazon-Googlefied vision of the future.

Herzlos

This guy seems to have pretty good idea of what's going on, being a Journalist with lots of connections. Probably anti-Brexit biased but pretty detailed and interesting read:


https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/2202169240107809

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Late in the day to worry about US influence. Already well ingrained in the UK.

I don't think it's ingrained in the UK as much as you'd think. Like I said it's all very superficial in terms of media portrayed and mimicing, but in an actual lifestyle it's wildly different.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

I wasn't offered a vote on capitalism though!

Maybe I saw Brexit vote as a disruptor. Certainly, a solid Remain vote would have reaffirmed those who believe in the EU integration vision.

It's definitely a disruptor, but I can only see the disruption going in the opposite direction to what you're expecting. Less rights, less opportunities, more money for the elite who'll going to continue doing what they always did but with less checks and bounds. It's like handing a wolf the keys to the hen house because he promised to keep the foxes away.