Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Sapphire

I don't even know how it was legally possible for politicians to take Britain into the EU organisation when they knew that the EU was aiming to become some 'superstate'. The population should certainly have been allowed a vote on whether it wanted to become such a political superstate, with the whole issue explained to it.

I only really became aware of the EU's ambitions at the time of the vote to leave, though one of my main concerns/surprises at the time was the way Merkel seemed to be dictating to all and sundry on matters that were relevant to individual nations' sovereignty. For me, the whole concept of being ruled by a foreign dictatorship that populations cannot remove from power by voting to do so is truly scary.

The sooner we leave the better.

Moby

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities

The more disadvantaged voters that turned out for Brexit are also united by values that encourage support for more socially conservative, authoritarian and nativist responses. On the whole, Leave voters have far more in common with each other than they have things that divide them. Over three-quarters of Leave voters feel disillusioned with politicians; two-thirds support the death penalty; and well over half feel very strongly English. Over one third of Leave supporters hold all three of these attitudes, compared to just 6 percent who do not hold any of them. This more liberal group of Brexit voters, therefore, constituted a very small part of the coalition for leaving the EU

.”

Herzlos

Cakeguts wrote: »

You seem to have conveniently forgotten that joining the EEC has turned out to be completely different to what people though they were joining in 1971. You could say that they were hoodwinked in the referendum in 1973 and then again in 1992.



The whole UK membership of the EU is non democratic. There was no referendum in 1992.

The whole Remain campaign seem to have conveniently forgotten that the UK public were not consulted about joining in 1992 and yet they claim that the Leave campaign believed lies without any evidence to back this up.

I haven't forgotten it, I just don't agree. Our elected representatives agreed with it every step of the way. The changes have almost always been beneficial and usually pretty sensible. No-one was tricked that a union has changed over 40 years, that's evolution.

Herzlos

Moby wrote: »

Good article in the New Statesman:-
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/10/england-s-political-narcissism-could-break-union?amp&__twitter_impression=true

.

There is a concerning willingness to be so bloody minded about Brexit and asserting the will of the majority that the above scenario is a real prospect.

I fear a pig headed unwillingness to look facts in the face is going to drive us to a hard brexit. I think almost everyone involved knows it's a bad idea but is just refusing to back down because that's just not very English.

I haven't seen many brexiteers draw a line where they'd regard brexit a failure. I've known one who's happily take us back to the stone age to be away from the EU, who drew the line at bloodshed, but was happy to put a fence across Ireland and leave them to it. He acknowledged it was going to be a disaster but felt he'd be a hypocrite if he changed his mind now. The only way you'd get him to want to stay in the EU would be if it became a British vassal.how do you deal with that on a rational level?

ukcarper

Moby wrote: »

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities
.”

I don't see anything wrong with feeling strongly English and I find it insulting to say that it is, I also think being disillusioned with politicians is not confined to leave voters I am.

Herzlos

Cakeguts wrote: »

Not only that but it seems fairly large majority of the people on the march didn't actually know why they were there. When I thought about it today I couldn't actually ever remember a protest where most of the protesters were protesting about something completely different to what was supposed to have been.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or are you just being petty here? I think it's fair to say that almost all of then we're against proceeding with brexit as is, whether that's with scrapping it entirely or having another referendum about the new deal or remaining. There's a huge overlap with those 2 groups.

Or do you mean some were protesting brexit while some were protesting Tory attacks on the disabled or something entirely unrelated?

Again I'll point out with 23 in the counter protest, there will have been more people who got swept up in it on the way to the shops for a hangover cure than were counter protesting.

Moby

ukcarper wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with feeling strongly English and I find it insulting to say that it is, I also think being disillusioned with politicians is not confined to leave voters I am.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation have a very good reputation based on their actual research rather than personal prejudice.

Herzlos

Cakeguts wrote: »

Not only that but it seems fairly large majority of the people on the march didn't actually know why they were there. When I thought about it today I couldn't actually ever remember a protest where most of the protesters were protesting about something completely different to what was supposed to have been.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or are you just being petty here? I think it's fair to say that almost all of then we're against proceeding with brexit as is, whether that's with scrapping it entirely or having another referendum about the new deal or remaining. There's a huge overlap with those 2 groups.

Or do you mean some were protesting brexit while some were protesting Tory attacks on the disabled or something entirely unrelated?

Again I'll point out with 23 in the counter protest, there will have been more people who got swept up in it on the way to the shops for a hangover cure than were counter protesting.

Moby

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1034387/Brexit-news-Theresa-May-conservative-party-no-confidence-vote-show-trial-1922-committee
Don't usually quote from a right wing rag like the Express but this does stand out. How decent people can support politicians who have such views beggars belief:-

THERESA MAY is facing a high-stakes “show trial” as disenchanted Tory MPs urge her to “bring her own noose” and address their grievances over the botched Brexit talks

Cakeguts

Herzlos wrote: »

Do you have any evidence for this? Or are you just being petty here? I think it's fair to say that almost all of then we're against proceeding with brexit as is, whether that's with scrapping it entirely or having another referendum about the new deal or remaining. There's a huge overlap with those 2 groups.

Or do you mean some were protesting brexit while some were protesting Tory attacks on the disabled or something entirely unrelated?

Again I'll point out with 23 in the counter protest, there will have been more people who got swept up in it on the way to the shops for a hangover cure than were counter protesting.

No I am not being petty. They really didn't understand the purpose of the march. I would think that a large majority of them thought that the People's Vote march was to get another referendum vote because that is what the placards and banners that they had with them said and also what they said on interviews with the media. It didn't help that the media also didn't know what the march was about.



I can see why they and I were confused because in the advertising for the march the purpose which was to get a People's Vote on the deal for leaving Brexit was written is small print (always read the small print) and in big letters stopping Brexit but nowhere in the information was anything about a second referendum vote. So there was a large majority of marchers who thought that the People's Vote was a second referndum Vote which means that they hadn't realised the purpose of the march.



I find this incredible that people will go on a march without finding out what it is about?



I don't know what would happen if someone started a march for something sinister but put that in the small print and stop Brexit in large letters? I suppose all these people would turn out for that as well?



It was very clearly a march for people who have no clue what they are doing there. I can only assume that they didn't know what they were voting for either.