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Pregnant Friend Applying for a Job at my Company
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Why would a woman assume she's not going to be discriminated against when seeing the attitudes of many men on this thread?
Full disclosure. I'd do it if i needed an upcoming back operation. Pregnancy is a protected characteristic. One sniff of not getting it because she was pregnant and she could take them to the cleaners as it were. Would an employer want to risk that?
I'm disgusted with some of the things I've read and the attitudes displayed here. Words thrown out include fraud, betrayal, swanning off, underhanded, etc. How very easy for the men who will never face this discrimination to sit in judgement of women, who are at a very vulnerable time in their life. There's a reason protection is offered by law during pregnancy, and many of you should do some reading and reassess your predjudicies. In the future your comments will be viewed as archaic and wrong as the casual racism of the past.
Men face discrimination all the time.
And also, be "disgusted" all you like but i'm sitting here beside my wife who has 1,200 staff working for her and faces this sort of scenario regularly. It definitely makes you question a persons integrity if they dont declare it until they have their feet under the table.
Women are pregnant for 9 months. They can't always stay with their current employer, redundancy, bullying, etc, or don't want to.
Any proof at all thats the case here? No? Thought not.
Two people are having a baby and it's not women's fault that they are the ones that need to carry it. Men aren't trapped with an employer they don't want to be with for a year, aren't prevented for applying for new oppotunities, denying themselves promotion or relocation so why should women be? Especially now that men can take the maternity leave instead of women?
Again - any evidence of that here? No.
And likewise, nothing to stop a woman applying for another job and getting it, however personally i'd be up front about it. If someone chooses to keep their head down and say nothing until they're in the door, i think that speaks volumes about them and also hardly starts a two way trust relationship on a good footing does it?
If you're not sure if your attitude is wrong, just think would you say the same about an expectant father? If not then keep quiet and think about how you're part of the illegal discrimination problem women face in this country.
Hows my attitude wrong?
I believe the lady in question here (a) shouldnt have put the O/P in this position and (b) IMHO should have said to the employer, knowing its a protected characteristic.
And no i'm not part of "the illegal discrimination problem". Personally, if she was the right person for the job, i'd employ her irrespective, however i'd think more of the person if they'd been upfront about it.0 -
She is not deceiving anybody. There is no legal requirement to tell a current or prospective employer. It's a law that I don't agree with, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the law.
If the potential employer was permitted to ask if she is pregnant and she said she wasn't, that is deceiving the prospective employer.
Shes not obliged to, but IMHO she should. As was posed there, if the company did have issue with it at interview stage, would she be wanting to work for them in the first place?
Just because the law says she doest have to doesnt mean she cant.0 -
At times like this I despair, I really do, and it's a relief to know that money is retired.moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »I must admit I would wonder why someone that was supposed to be a friend of mine had put me in a "dilemma" type situation like this.
The firm is entitled to know imo - and the friend is showing herself up as not very honest if she takes advantage of the law in order to deliberately not tell them.
I'd be devastated if I were a small business owner and took someone on to find out this was the case - because of the effect it would have on my business - and I would worry about the job security of my other employees because someone had only thought of themselves personally like this friend has. I'll admit it would make very wary of taking on another woman of childbearing age in case it happened to me again.
I can say that because I am a woman.
There are various statistics about the rate of miscarriage, but NHS UK says: "Among women who know they're pregnant, it's estimated about 1 in 8 pregnancies will end in miscarriage." Some sites give a figure of 1 in 4, although that includes miscarriages which happen before someone knows for sure they are pregnant.
So a woman falls pregnant while job-hunting, and she should not, according to this view, make any effort to continue; or she should tell all potential employers that she is pregnant - or presumably mention if she is trying to get pregnant as well? Despite the fact that it can take years to conceive?
Meanwhile someone who may not be intending to get pregnant but may be fully intending to take 50 weeks of shared parental leave should - what? Also declare this to any potential new employer?
Pretending that employers won't find a reason NOT to employ you if you declare a pregnancy because it's a protected characteristic is just plain naive. Employment decisions are made by human beings: with the best interview and assessment protocols in place, knowing that someone is pregnant is going to affect your assessment. It is, IMO, inevitable that answers will be scored lower / adjusted. If you have two candidates who have scored equally well (and let's face it, who knows whether this woman will get to interview and get through interview at all), but you KNOW one of them is pregnant, who are you going to choose?
Employers need to wake up to several facts:- Childbearing age now covers a much wider range than it used to
- BOTH parents are entitled to take paid and unpaid parental leave, up to 50 weeks between them
- This means that employers are not 'safe' if they don't employ women of 'childbearing age' (whatever that is)
Signature removed for peace of mind0 - Childbearing age now covers a much wider range than it used to
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Pretending that employers won't find a reason NOT to employ you if you declare a pregnancy because it's a protected characteristic is just plain naive. Employment decisions are made by human beings: with the best interview and assessment protocols in place, knowing that someone is pregnant is going to affect your assessment. It is, IMO, inevitable that answers will be scored lower / adjusted. If you have two candidates who have scored equally well (and let's face it, who knows whether this woman will get to interview and get through interview at all), but you KNOW one of them is pregnant, who are you going to choose?
So just keep your head down and say nothing then and wait until your feet are under the table before breaking the good news? Hardly starting a positive employer / employee relationship on a good footing is it?
Based on this particular example and what the O/P has told us - his "friend" is already in a good job, doesnt need to move and hasnt particularly been looking.
They havent been bullied out of another job, arent unhappy, havent fallen pregnant whilst job hunting and we havent been told IF they are within the timescales of higher risk of miscarriage.
Under those circumstances - just like the example i cited RE: a back operation - i believe the "friend" (a) should stay in the company with whom they have a trusted established relationship and if she feels she wants to apply (b) should be declaring it. I would if it was a back problem.
IF the prospective employer doesnt embrace it then surely better to find that out BEFORE committing to work for them rather than AFTER?
And likewise - and the actual point of the thread - they arent much of a "friend" to the O/P for putting him in this position with his employer.0 -
Thanks everyone for the input, seems like the community is as divided as I have been.
My friend had the job interview, and as of yesterday was hired for the role, I didn't tell anyone in my work that she was pregnant.
As soon as she was offered the role, she informed them she is 3 months pregnant, and that she will be requiring 9 months maternity leave starting in 5 months time, this hasn't gone down too well with my colleagues. Especially as she has handed in her 6 week notice at her other job, so that means she will be with us for 14 weeks before leaving (assuming everything goes to plan)
My manager has taken this especially to heart, and is considering her position within the company, I doubt she will leave but you never know.
To that part I got dragged in for a conversation (informal obviously) asking me if I knew about the situation, to which I said I wasn't aware (obviously I was ,but trying to keep my head above water), at which point I got called a liar.
It has all got a bit playground after that, my friend isn't at all worried about starting the new role, she is very thick skinned, and under the thought that in 6 weeks time she will be walking into a non hostile environment, we shall see, but I know my manager has already looked at options for attempting to dismiss myself (a 12 year employee) and her. I doubt she will succeed, but she is a very vindictive lady to say the least.
Moral of the story, never entangle friends and work.0 -
ChrisL123456 wrote: »Thanks everyone for the input, seems like the community is as divided as I have been.
My friend had the job interview, and as of yesterday was hired for the role, I didn't tell anyone in my work that she was pregnant.
As soon as she was offered the role, she informed them she is 3 months pregnant, and that she will be requiring 9 months maternity leave starting in 5 months time, this hasn't gone down too well with my colleagues. Especially as she has handed in her 6 week notice at her other job, so that means she will be with us for 14 weeks before leaving (assuming everything goes to plan)
My manager has taken this especially to heart, and is considering her position within the company, I doubt she will leave but you never know.
To that part I got dragged in for a conversation (informal obviously) asking me if I knew about the situation, to which I said I wasn't aware (obviously I was ,but trying to keep my head above water), at which point I got called a liar.
It has all got a bit playground after that, my friend isn't at all worried about starting the new role, she is very thick skinned, and under the thought that in 6 weeks time she will be walking into a non hostile environment, we shall see, but I know my manager has already looked at options for attempting to dismiss myself (a 12 year employee) and her. I doubt she will succeed, but she is a very vindictive lady to say the least.
Moral of the story, never entangle friends and work.
Still, your "friend" got to exercise her rights under UK law and thats the main thing, eh?. :beer:
Thats clearly seen as much better for some on here than the carnage your "friend" has now caused for you and your colleagues.0 -
At 12 weeks she'd have only just got her first scan so there was no reason for your work to think you'd know. I don't think your work can dismiss you and if they try to dismiss her they'd better have a great lawyer or a huge pot of money, especially if your friend finds your last post.0
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At 12 weeks she'd have only just got her first scan so there was no reason for your work to think you'd know. I don't think your work can dismiss you and if they try to dismiss her they'd better have a great lawyer or a huge pot of money, especially if your friend finds your last post.
As the O/P has said, he doubts they will exercise that capability, but it has left him in a very sticky situation. They might not dismiss him for that but he could be "managed out" of the business over time or find his role is redundant down the line.
Still, the "friend" is ok in all of this, so thats what most important, eh?0 -
At 12 weeks she'd have only just got her first scan so there was no reason for your work to think you'd know.
He did know, and presumably his reaction when asked made them believe he was a liar. Great position hes in now.
if they try to dismiss her they'd better have a great lawyer or a huge pot of money,
I worked for a firm before that took the approach if they wanted rid of an employee and ended up at a tribunal, paying out was better than having the wrong person / someone they didnt want in their organisation.
Likewise its not an uncapped amount. Might be worth it to them
especially if your friend finds your last post.
Lets hope his employer doesnt read it either and thus have evidence he was lying.0
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