Letter Before Claim - UKPPO

Umkomaas

Only a judge can determine that. Not every judge agrees with each other. We are just interested bystanders, not legally qualified experts (apart from 2 or 3).

Redx

as mentioned above , it is difficult to say , only a judge can telll you, in court

what I will say is that you as KEEPER stated you understood the error of the DRIVER not displaying a permit, but as KEEPER you are still not liable UNLESS they can prove they followed POFA2012 to a judge

in order to win their case they must prove to a judge that the correct person is the defendant and that they have followed the correct procedures and laws

so if they failed to get NTK,s to you and can provide evidence of these NTK,s (which they have not done so far) then their case seems to be fatally flawed

so if I were defending this I would use the simple legal argument that no paperwork was received by the defendant until recently, no proof has been shown in the pre-trial LBC stage and they failed to follow the new oct 2017 pre action protocols as well (despite being asked)

so I would be defending the claim in full, as not liable your honour, UKPPO have failed POFA2012 so please dismiss the case and award me my costs

Elmo111

Umkomaas wrote: »

Only a judge can determine that. Not every judge agrees with each other. We are just bystanders, not legally qualified experts (apart from 2 or 3).

Would this not overwrite anything that @Redx has said above? I'm still confused with how I'm able to contest any of the parking charges, as a permit was not displayed. (to which I have not admitted, but acknowledged to be a problem.)

I've also asked the land owners if they have functioning CCTV of the car park in question, to see if the tickets where removed from the vehicle before I actually had a chance to see them - again, just because UKPPO can show they where affixed to the vehicle, doesn't mean that I physically saw/acknowledged them - which I didn't.

EDIT at 23:05: @Redx - looks like we replied at the same time - the comment I'm referring to is the one I've quoted you above - thank you for actually replying to my latest reply haha!

Just grabbing section 4 from POFA2012:

Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle
4
(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2)The right under this paragraph applies only if!!!8212;
(a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met; (all of which I've just given a quick read)

I'm slowly but surely understanding the legalities behind this, I'll work on a draft ASAP for critique on here.

Redx

there is an illegal practice known as "ghost ticketing" and it has been captured on CCTV or mobile phones etc , so there is that possibility

I believe that my thoughts were clear on how you contest this

its simple

if they failed to follow POFA2012 then you as KEEPER are not liable for what a driver may have failed to do

there will be other legal arguments, some are complicated , but unless they prove that they followed POFA2012 then the claim should be struck out as they failed to follow a law issued by the UK government back in 2012

Umkomaas

Elmo111 wrote: »

Would this not overwrite anything that @Redx has said above? I'm still confused with how I'm able to contest any of the parking charges, as a permit was not displayed. (to which I have not admitted, but acknowledged to be a problem.)

Not necessarily. If you can argue points based on PoFA (as Redx points out) then that gives you some basis, but ultimately it is the judge who will determine the issue.

With us, you are pushing at an open door, and it would be so easy to say you are 100% in the right. It is our natural instinct, and why we come here every day. But it would be totally remiss of us to give you total backing and encourage you to be over confident in your case when we know that a judge can (and has done) take a contrary view, often apparently on shaky ground. It's the lottery of the small claims system. And we have no influence over that.

None of this is simple. The forum was designed to deal with parking tickets at base level. It was never envisaged that it would be handling (often) complex legal cases, accompanied by unrealistic expectations of our ability to wave a magic wand from motorists.

That's how it is.

Redx

in post #20 you referred to POFA2012 which CM kept in the mix

NTK = Notice To Keeper which is required under POFA2012 and to contain the correct wording and be in the correct timescale too

You state they issued pictures of pcn,s affixed to the vehicle windscreen , so they are notices for the driver and they should have been left in situ

then they should have applied for KEEPER data between day 29 and day 56 following these windscreen ticket dates AND got the NTK for each and every one to the keeper by day 56 , with the correct POFA wordings on them (with free proof of posting at the very least)

all the above should have been supplied when you kept asking, as proof of the charges they raised with you the keeper to prove they have a valid case against the keeper (full and frank disclosure and showing their proof that if it goes to court they have a cast iron case and that they have a contract with you the keeper)

I have read this thread several times (as have others on here) and its this issue regarding keeper liability under POFA2012 that has been the main topic throughout , because it trumps anything else

think of it as if you hire a vehicle and you and your partner drive it legally

your partner is caught speeding at 90mph in a 70mph limit on a motorway, on 4 consecutive days

they send the tickets to the hire co, who name the hirer/lessee/keeper (you) because they are not responsible for what the hirer or the driver does on that motorway

are you liable for these 4 speeding tickets when it was your partner that was responsible ?

welll you are if you do not name the driver (if known)

now let us suppose they were sent to the hire company and then to you after 12 months or 18 months had elapsed and you knew nothing about it in the meantime , can they still win in court ?

I doubt it because there are time limits on issuing tickets by post , laws to abide by etc

if they fail to provide proof they even sent out any letters to you as keeper/hirer , are you liable for the charge or charges some 18 months later ?

the claimant has to prove their case in law , within timescales, following laws and protocols and in a non-fraudulent manner

so if this was you fighting 4 speeding tickets after 2 years that would mean you were fined and banned , you would take a dim view of them if the sender had failed to follow the legal process

many trials and court cases fail on legal technicalities, even if its clear that a PERSON was driving at 90 mph on a motorway on 4 consecutive days , so nobody would be disputing the fact that 4 infringements had happened at the times stated

BTW, I am not legally trained so just putting forward a few musings that come to mind, they may not be strictly accurate but you get the gist I am sure

if CM or johnnersh or LOC123 reply with legal arguments etc then thats fine by me, as I may not be totally accurate on this , but its where I and Umkomaas are coming from as lay persons

ideally you need a person trained in private parking matters and the laws involved of a NICK FREEMAN standard to legally advise you , but it would probably cost you more than UKPPO are claiming

and NICK FREEMAN would be telling the judge (or magistrates) that UKPPO have failed on one or more technicalities so to have the case struck out with your own costs (and his no doubt) awarded

Coupon-mad

The particulars of claim don't even give the 4 dates, let alone the reason for each PCN, the breach(es) alleged, or even whether the car was on the roadway and/or the car park.

Utter drivel of a vague claim, as per usual for PPCs. They probably hope you will be scared into paying, and have picked a few 'multi ticket' cases as the outlay is small for them to run a claim and they know people might just cough up in panic.

Not so here!

It is not going from bad to worse.

We see 99% of well defended cases won. Just TWO people who were fully coached on this forum in 2017 reported a loss (and paid about £175 per PCN, no CCJ, no repercussions, no huge court costs falling at your door, NO RISK). Hundreds won or saw their cases discontinued, once well defended.

Think of this as the fact that the scam will be over this year, one way or another, with the odds in your favour. We will help you.

if CM or johnersh or LOC123 reply with legal arguments etc then thats fine by me, as I may not be totally accurate on this , but its where I and Umkomaas are coming from as lay persons

I am a lay person too, no legal qualifications. But LOC123 and Johnersh are solicitors who happen to post here too.

I am glad you are up for defending the claim, and we will assist you throughout.

System

Couple of points to note - non legal. The first is that this appears to be a DIY one by Karen in that they haven't used a solicitor. So if you are not in Manchester, then they would need to travel or hire a solicitor to get this to a hearing.

Coupon-mad

And the second point, IamEmanresu?

Elmo111

Evening everyone!

I decided to email UrbanBubble today, the landowners of the underground car park, asking for any CCTV footage in relation to the possible "ghost ticketing".

UrbanBubble only keep the last 4 weeks of video footage and they quite clearly told me that there has been no request from UKPPO ever for CCTV.

I'd like to think this is another weapon in my arsenal if they are still adamant in pursuing their cause?