what expenditure is allowed

soolin

Dad is in a care home and I have confirmation that he is not entitled to any state help as his assets are over £21,300 (I thought the limit was more than that but that's what the letter says). I have filled out all the forms and so we have a sort of 'base line' figure as to his assets when he first needed care and I assume we pay the fees until such time his savings get down to £21,300.

My question is what sort of records do I need to keep about expenditure. I will obviously be paying the care home fees by DD so that will show clearly through the bank statements, but what about personal shopping and such like? Dad lets me know when he needs something like shampoo or new slippers and I buy the items and take the money from his bank account using a bank transfer and use the explanation 'personal shopping' I also keep the receipts. He has also continued to want to send cheques, around the £30 each to his grandchildren for birthdays and he does that by cheque, can he still do that or will it be considered that he is artificially spending money or something. What about Christmas, can he still buy gifts and if so is there a limit. Before he was ill he used to give each grandchild £10 a month pocket money (5 grandchildren between 2 daughters) but I stopped him doing that as I thought that was probably not allowed.

I'm trying to do all this completely by the book as Dad is only 81 and I'm terrified his money will run out and we'll need to go to the state and they'll refuse to help as he's spent money he shouldn't have. At the moment based on his current fees I reckon his money will last about 14 years, but that doesn't take into account any rise in fees or any need for a nursing home in future.

I've looked through all sort of stuff online and it just says that people in this situation can't artificially spend their money to reduce their savings to get state help, but there isn't any real guidelines about what is a reasonable expenditure. I won't see Dad go without, if necessary I'll pay for his shopping myself, but it seems a shame to do that if he is allowed to spend some of his savings.

monkeyspanner

I thought the savings limit is £21500 at the moment.

Having watched these threads for a while the consensus seems to be that people in care homes and self funding can continue to give personal gifts on birthdays and Christmas in line with their previous expenditure. As your Dad can last about 14 years by your estimates it would seem his savings and income are not inconsiderable and therefore I would have thought what would be reasonable should be judged in that light and personally I would continue with the pocket money.

In cases where the council are paying fees then most of person's income is taken to contribute to their care but even in that position people are allowed a weekly allowance of around £20 (precise level depends on the council) to spend as they wish although some councils try to ignore this entitlement. We are in a similar position with my MIL and she is self funding and we make sure this amount is taken out of her bank weekly for her own use on the basis that if it is reasonable for the council funded residents then it is reasonable for self funders.

There was one thread recently were a council was disputing the level of savings because the person in a care home had given away I think £7000 to 14 relatives. So she had made gifts in £500 lump sums. It's probably best to avoid doing that.

As your Dad has substantial resources have you considered an anuity scheme. The poorer his health the bigger the return on the investment. I have seen an average life expectancy figure in one thread recently given as 3 years from entering a care home. This organisation can give you some suggestions. https://www.hsbcpensions.co.uk/nhfa/pages/CareInfo.asp

It is also worth mentioning that as your Dad's resources reduce you should keep in mind that he may become entitled to state benefits. We recently asked this question and were told to reapply when my MIL's savings fell to I around £67000.

EdInvestor

From the same website , 10 tips about getting money to fund care:

https://www.hsbcpensions.co.uk/nhfa/pdfs/is6.pdf

Is dad getting Attendance Allowance? That's 40-60 pounds a week. If he gets some nursing care, he will be eligible for 101 pounds a week.

Look closely at the "care annuities" as mentioned - these guarantee an income for life, are paid tax free, and cap the cost of care .They are Value for Money at your Dad's age.Recommended.

If Dad has a reasonable pension income, there should be no need to spend all his capital to maintain his independence and quality care as the annuity will provide a large additional income at comparatively low cost, which should meet the fees..

soolin

Thank you for those suggestions. I am sort of looking at the annuity issue already as knowing that the fees were covered would be a great relief. All I seem to do at the moment is write figures on the back of an envelope every time I think of something else to worry about.

EdInvestor

OK Soolin, here's the sum you need to do:

First, add up your Dad's total pension income, private and state
Then add on any income he has from savings and investments.

Next, apply for and add on Attendance Allowance payment.

Total these up.

Then note down the payment for the care home.

What is the gap between the two ?

Once you have worked that out, we can move to the next stage, "funding the gap".

margaretclare

Ed, it's soolin's Dad, not Mum, isn't it?

Margaret

soolin

Yep my dad...

I am looking at the annuity situation at the moment but it is so difficult to know or try and second guess how long I will need to stretch dad's money for. I know this sounds harsh but as others know from my other posts I am finding this is very difficult, as do most people in this situation and in my head I sort of seperate out the 'money' problem from my dad. He is apparently in good health, hence me looking to try and stretch the money longer than the 12-14 years I reckon I have but on the other hand every time I see him he seems frailer. No one will tell me anything and there is no medical care being undertaken apart from GP visits as he is in a dementia home not a nursing home. I have done searches and the info available about dementia seems to suggest that some people deteriorate very quickly to a point where their body gives up, yet on the other hand I have heard stories about people surviving 20+ like this and just getting worse and worse.

Anyway, I have sent off for some literature about annuities and I'm about to tackle dad's tax return today and chase up the attendance allowance claim.

One last question ..assuming anyone is still reading my post as I know I am being a bit miserable today, will a basic Power of attorney allow me to sell dad's house? My dad has been adamant throughout that he his home is not to be sold as he is going home any day now, obviously I have to over ride that as his cash runs out very soon but will I have problems?

Lastly...rhetorical question how can I make all my phone calls to the authorities without crying at them every time I just say the word 'dad'? They must think me a real nutter phoning the Inland Revenue to ask for a tax return and crying down the line at them.

soolin

argghh, tracked down attendance allowance people to ask what is happening as I haven't heard since applying back in August. They said that no decision has been made but I should hear within another full month or so.

I have told them that I'm filling out all sorts of official forms and needed an idea but they said they had been in contact with the home and whilst they can tell me nothing they always caution applicants not to assume that they fit the criteria for receiving it. I'm really worried now, did I do the forms properly or have I missed something..what if I did do something wrong and dad doesn't get this allowance and his money runs out even sooner and it's my fault?

I have re checked the criteria and it says it is based on personal care needed, and dad can't even find his clothes in the morning unless the care staff lay them out and help him..so surely he should be OK to claim?

margaretclare

Soolin, it's incredible, and I do sympathise. I get AA - originally it was for 2 years, I agonised about whether to re-apply when the 2 years came to an end, someone advised me that I should, and now I have AA indefinitely. And I definitely can find my clothes in the morning although I still do need my DH's help, especially to put on shoes and socks or tights.

I've heard that a lot depends on how the form is filled in. Benefits advisers are used to this and they know exactly how the form should be filled in to get the desired response.

Did you emphasise that your Dad needs help both daytime and night-time? That he needs help to get up to go to the loo in the night, that he needs supervision because he doesn't know where he is, for his own safety etc? And that he needs help in the daytime to dress, wash, go to the loo, feed himself etc?

This is in the advice sheet quoted by Ed above:

"9. Section 117 After Care
If you know an older person that requires
care because they are mentally ill then
make sure that they have not previously
been admitted to hospital under Section 3
of the Mental Health Act 1983. If they
have been so admitted they should be
entitled to Section 117 aftercare under
the same act which can include full
funding for a care home place".

HTH

Margaret

EdInvestor

soolin wrote: »

One last question ..assuming anyone is still reading my post as I know I am being a bit miserable today, will a basic Power of attorney allow me to sell dad's house? My dad has been adamant throughout that he his home is not to be sold as he is going home any day now, obviously I have to over ride that as his cash runs out very soon but will I have problems?

Have you considered renting out Dad's home ?

What do the sums add up to, if you add the rental income to his pension income?

We'd be better able to help you if you posted some actual figures.

#Have amended post above, sorry about that.

soolin

Renting it out was my first thought but whilst I knew the property was delapidated a surveyor and three different builders have declared the house uninhabitable. I also have a gas prevention notice served on it (I'm not sure that is the correct term) saying that the piping within the house is in such a poor state that the house may not be occupied until a full gas repair and survey passes it fit again. I've also got an extension condemned with the council who say it is dangerous and in fact when one of the builders came he insisted we wore hard hats due to the danger. The gas has obviously been disconnected from the house and they are threatening to do the same to the water, but I have asked them for a stay as I am still desperately trying to clear the house working on my own.

Dad also has an un fulfilled council alert (again not sure what it is called) saying that the overgrown garden is in such a poor state that unless he clears it they will do it for him and fine him.

The surveyor estimated that just to make the house habitable again would use all the savings we had, and even then he said the basic repairs may add up to more as he wasn't sure about a worm infestation or how far the rot had spread and whether the council would allow repairs to an extension (he thought not) or whether it would have to be knocked down and replaced.

This may sound melodramatic but unless anyone could see how bad this is I can only ask you to imagine some of the properies seen on programmes like 'House of grime' and then add some. My father had been a recluse for many years and did not allow me entry to the place.

Frankly having spent weeks travelling back and forwards to the house making an attempt to clear the house room by room I just want the house gone as I can't manage it anymore. Frankly I would let it go today even with the loft crawl spaces still full of stuff, and some of the cupboards not emptied and the shed still entirely full of tools, and I wouldn't care.