Britannia Driving School - Consumer Right Exist?

lister

Tarambor wrote: »

Wow. I passed my car test with 8hrs, my Cat C with 20, my Cat C+E with 20. All first time.

One wonders how much milking of the cow is going on if 50hrs is barely above average. Certainly with my son once he mentioned he'd run out of money for lessons after 3 months they all of a sudden decided he was ready for his test coincidentally that very same lesson. He passed first time. He then also did a Cat C in 20hrs and Cat C+E in 20 hrs and passed both first time.

and

societys_child wrote:

50 hours . . . I had 8, and passed

Ah, I wondered if we were going to get the 'I passed in XX hours' crew. I'm surprised someone didn't manage to pass after just 10 minutes behind the wheel (in their dreams).

The reality of course is that driving is a highly complex motor and cognitive skill. I have taught many hundreds of people to drive. I have never met anyone who, from scratch, has developed the motor skills to pass a driving test in less than 15-20 hours, let alone the cognitive skills (which usually take a bit longer as they can't fully develop until the learner can control the car instinctively).

Anyone saying otherwise is either a) 'misunderestimating', b) lying to the world, c) lying to themselves or d) had plenty of other experience.

You can no more learn to drive and pass a test today (or indeed for the majority of the last 82.5 years, excluding of course 1939-1945 and a short period in 1956) with 8 hours behind the wheel than I could learn brain surgery by correspondence course (or indeed after 8 hours gouging around inside someones head)

The reality, well established by actual data rather than an internet widdling contest (by the way I can get mine 8ft off the ground while standing on my head), is that on average drivers have had around 40 hours of lessons and 20 hours private practice when they pass their test. So around 60 hours in total...

NBLondon

lister wrote: »

on average drivers have had around 40 hours of lessons and 20 hours private practice when they pass their test. So around 60 hours in total...

Is 40 hours the mean, median or mode? Given that Channel 5 has made money out of showing us people who have had hundreds of lessons and multiple fails there will be some people who get to test standard in 20 hours tuition plus practice. There are probably a few who think they have learned the necessary skills from their Xbox/PlayStation and have be untaught for a while. As Lily admits - passing the test is only part of the necessary skill set especially if you have never driven in the dark, at rush hour or over 39 mph. It's that difference between teaching and teaching-to-the-test isn't it?

Serious question - what's your take on Lily's indicate or not dilemma? I'm unclear from her descriptions whether she means 1) Turning into a one-way street - where you can only legally turn left or 2) Turning out of a one-way street where the left lane is turn left only and the right lane is turn right only. In the first case, I wouldn't signal. I have seen people signal right when turning left into a multi-lane one-way road to show that they intend/want to join the right-hand lane as soon as possible. In the second, I would probably indicate - partly out of habit and partly as a warning to pedestrians and cyclists who may be approaching from any direction (well that's a London thing...)

Car_54

NBLondon wrote: »

Is 40 hours the mean, median or mode? Given that Channel 5 has made money out of showing us people who have had hundreds of lessons and multiple fails there will be some people who get to test standard in 20 hours tuition plus practice. There are probably a few who think they have learned the necessary skills from their Xbox/PlayStation and have be untaught for a while. As Lily admits - passing the test is only part of the necessary skill set especially if you have never driven in the dark, at rush hour or over 39 mph. It's that difference between teaching and teaching-to-the-test isn't it?

Serious question - what's your take on Lily's indicate or not dilemma? I'm unclear from her descriptions whether she means 1) Turning into a one-way street - where you can only legally turn left or 2) Turning out of a one-way street where the left lane is turn left only and the right lane is turn right only. In the first case, I wouldn't signal. I have seen people signal right when turning left into a multi-lane one-way road to show that they intend/want to join the right-hand lane as soon as possible. In the second, I would probably indicate - partly out of habit and partly as a warning to pedestrians and cyclists who may be approaching from any direction (well that's a London thing...)

1. The DVSA quote an average of (from memory) 42 hours professional tuition and 20 hours private practice. They also quote a difference between genders, with females taking slightly more tuition on average.

However, these figures come from survey answers given by the candidates themselves. In my experience, the typical learner will have no idea of the number of hours of practice, and only a vague notion of the paid hours (if a parent is paying). These "official" figures are therefore an average of a large number of guesses, so any discusson of the finer points of modes, medians etc. is probably pointless.

2. With regard to signalling in a "left turn only" lane, or any situation where you have no choice, you must remember that signals are for the benefit of all road users, not just drivers. Would a pedestrian know your intended direction?

Lily_W

NBLondon wrote: »

1) Turning into a one-way street - where you can only legally turn left or 2) Turning out of a one-way street where the left lane is turn left only and the right lane is turn right only.

The sergeant instructed me not to indicate was under your second case.

I was confused, partly my habit was a bit disturbed.
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I saw it's a T-junction, there were left and right turns. I’ve learnt that you must indicate when turning left or right at a junction... Here is one quote:
WHEN MUST YOU INDICATE
Whilst driving and during a driving test it is compulsory to indicate at junctions, roundabouts, left and right turns and whilst overtaking.
DO YOU HAVE TO INDICATE IF NO ONE IS AROUND?
Put simply, yes! The simple fact of the matter is that you never know for sure if no one is around. You could be taking a left or right turn for example and a pedestrian who you didn’t see is about to cross the road at that junction. They would probably assume you’re not turning since you didn’t indicate.
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DoaM

Lily_W wrote: »

The sergeant ...

The who ?

Mercdriver

Lily_W wrote: »

The sergeant instructed me not to indicate was under your second case.

I was confused, partly my habit was a bit disturbed.
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And here is a crucial point. If you indicate out of habit are you actually doing the correct observations before signalling your intentions? I was told in my lessons to be careful about indicating unnecessarily as it can become an abbreviation of the process of a manoeuvre. I see it on the motorway all the time. I have to take evasive action (easily done most of the time because I have grown used to it so expect it to happen) because someone thinks that all they need to is signal and move. NOT signalling out of habit will leave you to make a decision whether to signal or not based on your observations.

It might be that the examiner notices you indicate when there is no one to see your indication. He might wonder whether you did your observations, and may in fact mark you down a minor if he doesn't see you do them. The fact that you have signalled does bot mean you have done your observations.

Also, you need to view lessons as being more about preparing you for the big bad world on your own and not simply passing a test. You will have to drive on dark fast roads without holding up other road users at some point.

You've clearly come up with a stubborn teacher, and his manner and methods could definitely be better, but it doesn't mean he is completely wrong.

Just be aware that if you use an indicator inappropriately (this could very well mean that you get a minor for failing to use appropriate signals, and possibly another for observations.

If in doubt, I will indicate, but if there is NO doubt, it could actually be detrimental to you, to indicate. If the examiner suspects you are indicating simply out of habit, he may very well spot something you don't.

Treat lessons as a preparation for driving not simply for passing the test, and stop creating bogeymen in your head. Go out in the more difficult times when you do have someone next to you.

The first thing I did when I passed my test was a total trip of 900 miles, and I was driving in central London within a week.

Whatever you do, don't confuse your incompatibility with your instructor with him being incorrect. He won't have been on everything. Remember that you may come to a parking area with poorly marked spaces. You want driving to enable you to do things, not to disable you with fear that you have been so guided by 'habits' that you are too scared to try new things.

Good Luck.

gpc273

Lily_W wrote: »

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Here is one quote:
WHEN MUST YOU INDICATE
Whilst driving and during a driving test it is compulsory to indicate at junctions, roundabouts, left and right turns and whilst overtaking.
DO YOU HAVE TO INDICATE IF NO ONE IS AROUND?
Put simply, yes! The simple fact of the matter is that you never know for sure if no one is around. You could be taking a left or right turn for example and a pedestrian who you didn’t see is about to cross the road at that junction. They would probably assume you’re not turning since you didn’t indicate.
___

Where are you getting these quotes from? They are not true and if you are learning to drive it cannot be learnt by rote.
Signals are for the benefit of other road users, and as mentioned previously that includes pedestrians etc. You should also remember that maybe not every driver around you is a local and knows the road layout.
An old but true adage is treat everyone around you as a twit and you won't go far wrong.

Car_54

Lily_W wrote: »

Here is one quote:
WHEN MUST YOU INDICATE
Whilst driving and during a driving test it is compulsory to indicate at junctions, roundabouts, left and right turns and whilst overtaking.

Where does that quote come from? It is simply untrue.

Learners are generally advised always to signal at junctions, for the simple reason that they are unlikely to have the experience to judge confidently that a signal is unnecessary. Examiners take this into account.

However, if a signal is omitted correctly (because appropriiate observations have been carried out and no-one would benefit) then no fault will be marked.

Lily_W

DoaM wrote: »

The who ?

Sorry, I nicknamed my training as a military style.

Even he is faulty, he would not accept it.
If I want to pass my test, the only way is to reach the point of arguing.

e.g.
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I am not joking, even the bay parking manoeuvre he will shout out when to turn your wheel…

There is one example, his instruction turn was not correct, I had to correct him but he refused to take in. (Maybe just because that was a piece of information from the student.)

The forward bay parking manoeuvre, we normally choose a bay where the neighbouring bays were empty. When I drove into the bay then packed the car, at that position he will ask me to turn the wheel (mean reverse and drive out the bay).

I said I could not do this, if I do I will fail my test. You have to straight reverse back about three quarters of the bay then turn into the direction you want. (In the real time if you are a full licensed driver you may choose to go across white lines when the neighbouring bays are empty, but the learner drivers are obliged to follow the correct procedural.)
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NBLondon

Lily_W wrote: »

You could be taking a left or right turn for example and a pedestrian who you didn’t see is about to cross the road at that junction. They would probably assume you’re not turning since you didn’t indicate.
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Well, glad you came back to talk to us again... But you're still unclear... At this T junction - was the road you were IN one-way or the road you TURNED into?

The point about signalling for the benefit of pedestrians is correct - and there are some very vacant ones about! But as my merc driving chum points out - are you indicating automatically or because you have actually looked for pedestrians or cyclists?

They would probably assume you’re not turning since you didn’t indicate.

You can't go straight on at a T-junction - that's usually a fail :-)

It does sound like you got an awkward instructor - but if your responses to him were like your posts here - you may have got his back up and that wasn't helping him to help you. Yet you went on for two extra lessons with him? Do you want Britannia to give you some more free/discounted lessons with a different instructor?