Asda Car parking ticket

Bamber19

marleyboy wrote: »

This might just help clarify what the risks are for non payment http://www.blaby.gov.uk/ccm/navigation/transport-and-streets/motor-vehicles--roads-and-parking/parking/parking-fines/ ......and that it is indeed commonly known as a "fine".

Sorry to drag this up again just as it looked like people had calmed down but your link is about parking fines on council land and roads, you know, the type that is called a fine and is legal, it's a completely different kettle of fish from private land and private unlawful penalty charges (which are not fines)

d123

Bamber19 wrote: »

Sorry to drag this up again just as it looked like people had calmed down but your link is about parking fines on council land and roads, you know, the type that is called a fine and is legal, it's a completely different kettle of fish from private land and private unlawful penalty charges (which are not fines)

the fact that it is a Council website was the biggest clue to that

Why do so many people get confused between what the police, wardens and council parking attendants can do and what unscrupulous "parking enforcement" companies can do.

One is law enforcement, the other is dodgy revenue gathering reliant on the ignorance of contract law.

d123

NovaBlack wrote: »

lol just as a random side isue, what would happen if i went n parked a caravan on a morrissons car park, didnt pay any tickets n decided to live there permanently? lol. close to town, nice location, supermarket nearby hahahaha:rotfl: :rotfl: :beer:

i mean they cant charge me for anythin right? sounds like a good deal!
Although i can see how theyd be annoyed if half their carpark got taken up by 50 or so travelling nomads who decided to camp up there for a week.

We should have an MSE meet n camp out there! BBQs campfires marshmallows!

You meant the above as a joke, but it actually is a real problem with travellers setting up camp in car parks (just do a google search "travellers in car park").

And NO they dont get issued with penalty charges , they just normally get given a few weeks to leave which they eventually abide by and move on to another car park.

RadoJo

So, from what I can gather, you have a legal leg to stand on if you refuse to pay a parking ticket issued by a private company as opposed to the council, as it is unlikely that you would be pursued.

However, presumably if enough people refuse to pay tickets issued by private companies, these companies will lobby for a legal status for the tickets they issue, and at that point the level will be set as to what constitutes a fair charge, in the same way as the OFT have intervened with banking charges.

Bamber19

RadoJo wrote: »

So, from what I can gather, you have a legal leg to stand on if you refuse to pay a parking ticket issued by a private company as opposed to the council, as it is unlikely that you would be pursued.

To borrow from the esteemed Vicki Pollard, No but yeah. You have a legal leg to stand on, a very sturdy, well balanced one, but it has nothing to do with likelihood of being pursued, it's because they have no right to issue this penalty charge of 50 times the loss to them.

Where a company charges £1 for parking with an incentive of a refund if you use the store then someone using the car park, not using that store but still paying £1 is a possibility. In this instance a person who neither pays or uses the store or who doesn't pay but still uses the store can only ever be deemed to have cost the store £1 as potential customers (and the potenitally high sums of money they would spend) who go elsewhere when spaces are not available cannot be taken into account when the possibility to pay £1 and not shop there exists.

marleyboy

Bamber19 wrote: »

Sorry to drag this up again just as it looked like people had calmed down but your link is about parking fines on council land and roads, you know, the type that is called a fine and is legal, it's a completely different kettle of fish from private land and private unlawful penalty charges (which are not fines)

But if you had read all of it properly, you would have seen the section with the link regarding "onroad" and "offroad" parking, which it does state "offroad" includes supermarkets and private car parks.

Under the decriminalised parking regime, on and off street parking arrangements are combined within the same operation. Because the Council’s off street car parks which are included in the new arrangements, as are residents parking schemes, this means that legally, the County Council become responsible for their enforcement (and that of a Morrisons car park), as well as on street residents parking schemes.

I read it vigorously enough to be absolutley sure that "supermaket" parking is included, and it indeed IS, which also according to the link ARE fines and above all are lawful. I am no expert on such cases, but I trust what the site says, over and above what any poster on a forum says.

Sorry if you think that is argumentative, or that you are under the impression that its all the other posters on this thread other than yourself, who need to calm down on the issue. But I have not found anything that states the "penalties" are illegal. If you have something that shows they are, I am more than prepared to beleive your opinion.

uktim29

RadoJo wrote: »

and at that point the level will be set as to what constitutes a fair charge, in the same way as the OFT have intervened with banking charges.

No because there are not bank charges, they are fines that are meant to act as a deterrent so won't be restricted to the average cost of administration etc.

judderman62

This thread is still going :eek::eek: :rotfl::rotfl: I mean seriously 5 pages :eek::eek:

Bamber19

marleyboy wrote: »

But if you had read all of it properly, you would have seen the section with the link regarding "onroad" and "offroad" parking, which it does state "offroad" includes supermarkets and private car parks.

I did read it all properly, perhaps if you had linked to the right page it could have been helpful as your page said nothing of the sort you were claiming it to. I have since found the page you are actually referring to and in my professional opinion i'd say the Morrison's car park is council owned. The fact it is worthy of a special bracketed mention should tell you there's something abnormal about it and that it doesn't speak for supermarket carparks UK wide, or even any other supermarket car park in the county of Kettering. In any case it referrs to one car park whcih is hardly stating that the term fine refers to all supermarkets and private car parks. Edit, on a second read the part you quoted is followed by a section that says all the car parks are council owned so again it is nothing to do with the OP's situation of an invoice issued by a private parking company for parking on private land.

First off i think i've given enough knowledge of contract law so far for it to be seen that without a legislative contradiction to this, this is the law. As far as the ability to issue fines, this comes from the Road Traffic Act of 1991 (the Decriminalised Parking enforcement system to which the thing you meant to link to mentions) and allows local authorities to have their own parking system and fines...it does not however allow private companies to have their own parking system and fines. The very fact that they have used the terms of the act on that site actually 100% confirms that this Morrison's car park is run by the local authority and not a private parking company.

Under English contract law penalties are illegal, maximum claimable loss is price of ticket. Private car parks run by private enforcement companies have no legal right to issue fines.

What must be realised is that in private-private situations the only law being relied upon by parking companies is the law of contract.

I'd actually love to see a copy of the invoice you've been sent as my gut feeling is that the issueing company will be in breach of criminal law pertaining to the Administration of Justice Act 1970. I say this only because many private parking companies are, by claiming on the "ticket" that it is an offence to remove the ticket or that the registered keeper's details can be obtained from the DVLA.

The problem is two fold, the companes are either run by people who have no idea of the law of contract or who know about it but rely on the average person's lack of knowledge and know some people will just pay up.

It is common law that penalty charges are illegal, they contravene the very backbone of contract law whereby, in a breach of contract the law seeks to put the parties in the position they would be in had the contract been completed.

"Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. v. New Garage and Motor Co. Ltd. (1915)

i) The sum is a penalty if it is greater than the greatest loss which could be suffered from the breach.

ii) If it agreed that a larger sum shall be payable in default of paying a smaller sum, this is a penalty.

Ford Motor Co. v. Armstrong (1915)

In this case, the judges reached the conclusion that the sum to be paid for a breach of the contract was substantial and arbitrary and bore no relation to the potential loss of the other party. It was, therefore, a penalty."

Finally, the biggie, a primary source of law, actual legislation on the matter

"Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999).

Schedule 2 Indicative and Non-Exhaustive List of Terms which may be Regarded as Unfair:

(e) requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a dis-proportionately high sum in compensation."

Same Regulations:

"“Unfair Terms
5. - (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

(2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

(3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract.

(4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was."

There is not a court in the land that will find £60 proportionate to a loss of £1

Now Marleyboy, you set me somewhat of a challenge, and now i have one for you, find me a successful, adjudicated case where a Private Parking company has taken someone to court over what you call a fine and won.

Secondly, find me any legislation that allows said Private Parking companies to issue fines. Personally i'd advise you start with the second one as the fact there is no such legislation may save you the hassle of a frutless search for number 1.

Bear in mind, in the unlikely event you find something and feel you want to link to it, please link directly to it and not another page that doesn't say what you say it does.

marleyboy wrote: »

but I trust what the site says, over and above what any poster on a forum says.

Please continue to do so, but when what the forum poster says and what the site says don't contradict don't imagine that they do.

All you've demonstrated with your(intended) link and break down of said link is an ability not to read properly and to misinterpret things. A link about council run car parks tells the world absolutely nothing about the legality of Exbortinant charges issued by private parking firms nor does it tell you whether one can call them fines or not.

uktim29 wrote: »

No because there are not bank charges, they are fines that are meant to act as a deterrent so won't be restricted to the average cost of administration etc.

That's kind of the question that hangs over bank charges. whether they are actually indicative of the cost to the bank or unfair penalty charges, the exact same question would hang over these charges, whether they represent the loss suffered by ASDA(and there is no possible way for this to be higher than the cost of parking) or if they are a penalty charge. They would be restricted to the actual cost. It's just as unlawful to have a penalty charge (which is what a deterrant is) in a contract between consumer and car park and a contract between consumer and bank.

taxiphil

marleyboy wrote: »

But if you had read all of it properly, you would have seen the section with the link regarding "onroad" and "offroad" parking, which it does state "offroad" includes supermarkets and private car parks.



I read it vigorously enough to be absolutley sure that "supermaket" parking is included, and it indeed IS, which also according to the link ARE fines and above all are lawful. I am no expert on such cases, but I trust what the site says, over and above what any poster on a forum says.

I can't find the web page you are quoting from, but I am fairly sure that in this instance they are referring to a Morrisons supermarket where the adjoining car park is owned by the council.

Lots of supermarkets don't actually own their car parks - the council does.

The law would not allow a council to deploy Road Traffic Act legislation to enforce parking fees on a privately owned supermarket car park.