Will they go to court or not?

rizla01

paulstevens64 wrote: »

Sorry if I caused any confusion.


Below is V6 valid from 2015 to Jan 2018.


13.2 is still nothing like the quote from PE, so they need reporting, and a robust letter back quoting the actual words.


This 13.2 clearly says "You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go."


Whilst this does not define 10 mins, there is a minimum of 10 mins at the leaving end (13.4) so 10 mins would seem reasonable.


13 Grace periods
[FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light]13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light]13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light]at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light][FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light] [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light]

[FONT=GillSans Light,GillSans Light]

13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
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Hi Paul
I agree. A reasonable time should be 10 mins and I think, in view of the later release, that would be the length of time that any court SHOULD agree to.
I was just clarifying that I would not be able to use the later wording as a fact. Thats all.:)

Umkomaas

I've not read back over the entire thread, but your last few posts seem to be concentrating on the grace period to enter the car park, find a space, read the signage, then decide whether to stay or go. At the date of the parking event, this was described by the CoP as a 'reasonable' grace period, now helpfully determined by the BPA (albeit in their new CoP) as a minimum of 10 minutes, so it could not have been any less at the date of event - PE will need to put forward a very good case to a Judge for any less than 10 mins.

So there's your first 10 mins, then you have to factor in the further grace period of a minimum of 10 minutes to leave the site. That makes potentially a total of a minimum of 20 minutes to factor in to your argument. Are you doing that?

As I said, I've not read right the way back through the thread and you might have already accommodated the two periods.

rizla01

Umkomaas wrote: »

I've not read back over the entire thread, but your last few posts seem to be concentrating on the grace period to enter the car park, find a space, read the signage, then decide whether to stay or go. At the date of the parking event, this was described by the CoP as a 'reasonable' grace period, now helpfully determined by the BPA (albeit in their new CoP) as a minimum of 10 minutes, so it could not have been any less at the date of event - PE will need to put forward a very good case to a Judge for any less than 10 mins.

So there's your first 10 mins, then you have to factor in the further grace period of a minimum of 10 minutes to leave the site. That makes potentially a total of a minimum of 20 minutes to factor in to your argument. Are you doing that?

As I said, I've not read right the way back through the thread and you might have already accommodated the two periods.

Hi.
Yes the two Grace periods are taken into account in my arguments.
As WELL as inadequate signage and a double park.
But STILL they argue!!

rizla01

Any point in posting my reply to PE on here?

Coupon-mad

Yes please.

Here's a summary I wrote earlier for someone fighting a PE CCJ, same discrimination issue:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73860510#Comment_73860510

rizla01

How does this come across?

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your correspondence in relation to the Parking Charge xxxxxxxxxxx, and subsequent county court claim, XXXXXXXX

By way of reply, please permit me to draw your attention to a couple of points that you have raised.
You stated:-
1) It should be noted that the grace period at 13.2 of British Parking Association Code of Practice is to allow motorists to enter the car park, read the terms and conditions, and exit the car park if they do not wish to be bound by them.
Unless I am mistaken, it is Section 13.1 that you are probably referring to which actually says:-

!!!8216;Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park, but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.!!!8217;

Whereas section 13.2 that you incorrectly referred to clearly states: - the !!!8216;Grace Period!!!8217; is to enable a motorist reasonable time to decide whether to stay or not.
Please note-: This period of time applies to ALL motorists, whether or not they decide to park, and NOT as you claim.

The !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; referred to is in ADDITION to the 2 hour parking event, in the same way that as according to 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice V.6, a !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; AFTER the parking event has taken place, should also be given and that period should be a minimum time of 10 minutes.
It is now recognised (V. 7 of the B.P.A. Code of Practice) that the !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; prior to parking must also be a minimum of 10 minutes and there is no reason to suggest that period should be any less in previous years.

Therefore all motorists using this area are allowed 10 minutes, PLUS two hours free parking, plus a further 10 minutes making a sum total of 2 hours and 20 Minutes.
Clearly you can see that the 2 hours 18 minutes that you claim my car was in the Greyhound Parking area , is well within that time frame in which case I see absolutely no obligation to make any payment to your Company, whatsoever as there is no debt owing. I am totally confident that any judge would draw the same conclusion and I hope you will now see that further continuance of this matter is completely futile and without value.

If not, then please allow me to reiterate the following failings on your behalf, for the judge to also consider when making his decision:-

Version 6 Section 18.3 BPA Code of Practice states:-
a) You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site
You have failed to satisfy this condition as your signage does NOT cover the whole site. There are many areas, especially where I parked my car and other areas nearby that are completely devoid of any parking signs.

b] Signs must be conspicuous
Signage is placed far too high to be considered conspicuous All signs shown on your signage map are approx 8ft off the ground. Indeed one sign shown on your signage map doesn!!!8217;t even exist.

c) Easy to see read and understand.
I was only able to read the terms & conditions on your signs with the use of my Iphone by taking a photograph and enlarging it.

Your email also goes on to say:-
2) Furthermore, as noted below, you have confirmed that you had seen the signage on the date of the parking event and had been aware of the terms and conditions applicable in remaining at Greyhound Retail Park.

As stated in my last letter: Doe to the grossly inadequate signage layout, it was only on return to my car that I became aware of ANY sign. I then proceeded to move my car from the car park to the KFC Restaurant area where I was WAITING for an extended period of time before being served. After which time, I queued to leave the car park, as soon as I was able.

You also add that:-
3) The signage clearly conveys that by remaining within the car park, the motorist becomes bound by the terms and conditions of parking.
!!!8216;Clearly conveys!!!8217; is one thing your signage evidently fails to do, since in order to be bound by the terms &conditions on your signage the motorist must reasonably be expected to be able to read those terms & conditions. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure that is feasible
.
Also, as you will be fully aware, moving my car to a different area; and especially one that has no parking bays and no parking signs (and therefore cannot be considered part of the parking (For shopping) area), constitutes a second parking event and this too, is covered by further legislation ensuring that you are forbidden to count the time spent as one parking event.

Schedule 4 of the POFA that the notice must relate only to a single period of parking !!!8211; (whether a case relies on that Act or not - the intention of Parliament was not to allow private parking firms to add two parking events together, as happened when the car was moved away from the shops to a completely unsigned area such as the KFC, in order to concoct a parking charge as if the driver overstayed when shopping!)
There is definitely no valid case to answer here so I respectfully suggest that you reconsider your position in this matter. There really is no point in wasting any more time continuing with this.
Indeed if you still wish to pursue this matter through the courts, on top of your own costs, be aware that I will need to take the morning away from very well paid job and, in order to assist the judge in arriving at a fair decision.I will also need to employ the services of a videographer, for evidence providing purposes, to film the view from a car entering and parking, filming footage of the entrance and the entire site to clearly demonstrate where signage is placed and where it is missing

So finally, In light of the above, along with the other points raised in my defence, I have CLEARLY demonstrated that this claim has no realistic prospect of success and the claimant is therefore, once again, invited to withdraw the claim with no order for costs. This is a "drop hands" offer to settle, with each party bearing their own costs. The offer is available for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this email.

I look forward to your reply

The_Deep

I visited a PE controlled car park at Morrissons, Reading, last week.

The signage was appalling, lines and lines of text in very small text, unpunctuated, unparagraphed, in a faint pastel colour, (why not black).

If one were to ask 100 people if they would read it all before buying a tin of beans, I doubt very much if 90% would say that they would,

On this basis, if a reasonable man told a reasonable judge that the sign imposed an unreasonable burden on a motorist, would he agree?

DoaM

@post #178 ... it's a long thread ... have you already acknowledged being the driver? If not then your point a) gives the game away.

rizla01

DoaM wrote: »

@post #178 ... it's a long thread ... have you already acknowledged being the driver? If not then your point a) gives the game away.

Yes I have.

Coupon-mad

She really should mention the fact she qualifies for a reasonable adjustment of time, and that PE have broken the EA, IMHO.