When did Free Speech disappear?

pepper77_2

Tabbytabitha wrote: »

I don't see any reason for urinals to be in cubicles - most of us women don't have good enough eyesight to spot anything possessed by most men.😉

You wouldn't want mine on your nose instead of a wart.

Cornucopia

We live in complicated times.

Many of our issues come from the breakdown of the traditional order in which values would be handed-down, to become a fairly insular set of related views and opinions about things which would then be reflected back through the media, social interaction, politics and the law.

Progressively, since the 1960s, we've managed to convince ourselves that a wider and wider set of views, and of lifestyles are acceptable. For those of us of a liberal view, pretty much any lifestyle is now acceptable, as long as it is consensual and does not harm others.

Views are a little trickier, since we bring in questions of taste, public decency, respect for others, etc. etc.

In that context, we don't really have free speech and never really did. You can say what you like in private, but once you include other people in the equation, there are a huge variety of legal and political issues, as well as a wealth of social conventions to contend with.

I can kind of sympathise with the "no more free speech any more" camp. That feeling comes from a dismay at the way that society has changed, compared to our own values. (And by values I don't necessarily mean a narrow set of personal views, I mean a potentially broad, public-spirited set of feelings about what would be best for society).

In a complex, multi-cultural society (by which I mean all cultures, not just those associated with faith or ethnicity), the situation is incredibly complicated. What is de rigeur at the Rugby Club Dinner could be worthy of arrest when shouted out after Prayers on your particular weekday of choice.

We've discussed MSE in this context before. I know it seems like it could be a public service that permits anyone to say anything, but it isn't. Like much of the Internet, it is a privately-owned concern, and as such if it has corporate sensibilities and sensitivities around certain topics, then that is its prerogative.

Moby

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I am concerned that it appears to have become impossible to have rational debates on certain issues.

Why are am I and other people not allowed to state our distaste for little children being taught things that small children should not know about....

....or express our distaste for gender-neutral toilets...

.....or our dislike of politically-correct appointments.....

....or our concern about the amount of people entering our country....

.....or our worries about terrorism.......

...... or the sidelining of Christianity whilst Islam is lauded and paraded......

....What happened to free speech? Or even free thought?

.....Perhaps what you claim as free speech is experienced by others as a challenge to their rights or offensive to their values and we now live in a very diverse society so awareness and a sensitivity about such things is being polite and thoughtful? For instance one of my colleagues at work is a practising moslem who wears the hjab. Every time there is a terrorist attack she experiences abuse from ignorant knuckleheads....so I'm hardly going to talk about terrorism in front of her am I....to do so would be simply oppressive?
Similarly many of the people I work with are immigrants....I'm hardly going to go on about immigration to them am I!

pepper77_2

happyandcontented wrote: »

I sat through a presentation yesterday aimed at students.

The gist of it was that even if you are speaking privately to a friend and they are not offended by a comment made in jest or banter, if someone else overhears and complains that they were offended you will be disciplined. The RL example given related to sexuality, and a suspension was the outcome.

I'd last 5 minutes.

pepper77_2

Moby wrote: »

.....Perhaps what you claim as free speech is experienced by others as a challenge to their rights or offensive to their values and we now live in a very diverse society so awareness and a sensitivity about such things is being polite and thoughtful? For instance one of my colleagues at work is a practising moslem who wears the hjab. Every time there is a terrorist attack she experiences abuse from ignorant knuckleheads....so I'm hardly going to talk about terrorism in front of her am I....to do so would be simply oppressive?
Similarly many of the people I work with are immigrants....I'm hardly going to go on about immigration to them am I!

Why not?
Why should an immigrant not be capable of discussing important issues, why should a christian/muslim/hindu not be capable of discussing sky fairies?
I can assure you there are plenty of immigrants not in favour of further immigration. Still, you wouldnt know 'cos you dont discuss such things with immigrants.

£$&*"($£&(

Marisco wrote: »

You can yes, but if you deviate away from the flavour of the month current fashionable thinking, you are almost treated like a pariah, ridiculed as being "old fashioned" and worse. That is the problem. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and person A's is no more or less valid than person B's, no matter what Twitter, FB and th media says.

You mean old fashioned stuff like women should stay in the kitchen and raise children which is a view some people still hold. Or do have something else in mind. Is it one of the many elephants that you can't say here? This still sounds like some sort of perception based on political views.

Marisco

grahawk wrote: »

You mean old fashioned stuff like women should stay in the kitchen and raise children which is a view some people still hold. Or do have something else in mind. Is it one of the many elephants that you can't say here? This still sounds like some sort of perception based on political views.

So what if they do? It's not a view I personally subscribe to, but people are perfectly entitled to those views without being mocked for them surely? To take the subject that has been mentioned on here, gender neutral toilets, I don't agree with them, and I mean in airports etc, not the daft examples that have been used here i.e your own home. Why am I not entitled to say don't like them and don't want them without being ridiculed?

Even your own post above "you mean old fashioned views like..." is sarcastic. What is wrong with having "old fashioned" views? People are just as entitled to them as you are to your views, doesn't make yours right and theirs wrong though, just different.

[Deleted User]

Marisco wrote: »

You can yes, but if you deviate away from the flavour of the month current fashionable thinking, you are almost treated like a pariah, ridiculed as being "old fashioned" and worse. That is the problem. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and person A's is no more or less valid than person B's, no matter what Twitter, FB and th media says.

????????

I don't regard the opinions of a flat Earther who is a young Earth creationist - on these topics - as being valid in the least! They may however be perfectly rational on issues like cookery and vehicle maintenance. As people, they are fine. Their opinions? Well...... not so much.

The notion that ideas and opinions should be immune from criticism is quite frightening actually. That way lies totalitarianism.

WR

Moby

pepper77 wrote: »

Why not?
Why should an immigrant not be capable of discussing important issues, why should a christian/muslim/hindu not be capable of discussing sky fairies?
I can assure you there are plenty of immigrants not in favour of further immigration. Still, you wouldnt know 'cos you dont discuss such things with immigrants.

It's not about capability...It's about politness and there's no need to assure me of anything but thank you anyway.

Muttleythefrog

Cornucopia wrote: »

We live in complicated times.
...

I totally agree with your post.... there never as such has been freedom of speech... in the sense you could say anything at any time without any sanction. I've said on another thread much the same as you have... in that really what is probably happening is that voices of the past who were used to having mainstream content reception are now facing heat and ridicule (and marginalisation)... and understandably they don't like that change and are resistant to it. It feels like persecution... because it probably is... just as others have faced from those voices previously. On MSE you can see the struggle... people mocking and ridiculing those who change their gender identity.. yet it is those such people who perhaps hold views that are increasingly mocked and ridiculed in wider society. Change is inevitable. I feel much more able today to speak freely than I did 35 years ago in Primary school... much more so... like North Korea versus a student party kind of comparison..lol.. but I appreciate there will be others who feel the reverse is true for them.