Parking charge paid by Car Rental Company

NotSoLuckyLuke

Hello All

I got a letter from ZZPS dated 23rd of October 2017 stating that they are working on behalf of Elite Management Midlands LTD stating that I did not pay PCN in April. They were pursuing £172. Car which was "unauthorised parked" was a hired car from GB Vehicle Hire Erdington. I can't recall parking at the given spot on that day, as I am taking notes on where I work and was not in the vicinity of the given "unauthorised" parking place. I had never received any parking tickets or any penalties during the lease time ( approx. 1 month), nothing was attached to the windscreen. I checked this forum and decided to ignore this PCN as it had all the traits of not being a genuine one.

On the 2nd of November I received a letter from GB Vehicle Hire stating that they had paid the fine of £208. Wording they used was: "We have received a Court letter regarding this fine so we have had to pay it to prevent Court action against us even though it was yourself driving the vehicle. We now have to recover this money from you. The amount outstanding is as follows £208 for the Parking Fine, £25 Administration fee." And in red "Total amount outstanding £233" Underneath "You have 14 days from the date on this letter to settle the outstanding amount or we will have no alternative than to pass this matter on to our legal team who will then proceed with Court action against you. If it goes to Court then you will have a CCJ placed against you and your address which as you may or may not know will make it extremely difficult for you to obtain credit in the future." Letter from GB Vehicle Hire was using same threatening wording as all this companies issuing fake PCNs are using. So, I started to suspect that they are working together and this car hire company might be providing customer information to, in this instance, Elite Management Midlands LTD.

With the letter which was sent to me on the 02/11/2017 (from GB Vehicle Hire) there was a copy of the letter which was received by them from Wright Hassall Solicitors dated 23rd of October 2017 same date when ZZPS wrote to me. Letter from solicitors to vehicle hire company, read that they were instructed by ZZPS Limited on behalf of Elite Management (Midlands) LTD to recover the debt. This is the letter GB Vehicle Hire is describing in the letter to me as a "court letter" On the same date 2 different companies sent one letter to me asking for £172 and second letter to GB Vehicle hire asking for £208.

I have visited GB Vehicle Hire today to collect original PCN which was not provided to me, the only document they have provided to me was a document similar to one I received from ZZPS. This one was from PCN Admin Centre (same address as ZZPS) dated 2 August 2017 stated that car was parked unauthorized and the parking "charge" was £100. This letter was sent to GB Vehicle Hire. Whilst I was in GB Vehicle Hire office - person made a call to solicitor's firm and they confirmed that payment was made. Solicitors firm sent a receipt of this transaction to GB Vehicle Hire, I asked them to send this receipt to me but they advised it will be sent to me by their legal team. I assume this is if I decide not to pay this £233.

I had never received any letters from anyone prior to 23rd of October, so was not aware of any PCNs. I still don't have any evidence of my "unauthorized parking", furthermore the opportunity had not been given to me to pay this "charge" any time earlier to avoid the costs.


Please advise me what should I do next, as I suspect if I am taken to the Court by GB Vehicle Hire to recoup their payment I may loose my case, as they are not the side in the dispute against the PCN. The only GB Vehicle Hire wrong doing was:
- not sending me a letter with the PCN as soon as they received that
- paying this penalty on my behalf.

All comments will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Coupon-mad

Complain to the hire firm, in writing. Tell them this was their error, not yours, and you are not liable to refund them just because they panicked after not following due process as set out by the BVRLA and in the BPA/BVRLA Memorandum of Understanding, signed in 2013, following the change in the law within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the POFA).

Ask:

- when they got the first letter, why did they not simply discharge potential liability by providing the necessary details of lessee/hirer, in accordance with para 13/14 of the POFA, schedule 4? This would have enabled you to appeal, and would have discharged any potential liability for them, making it a matter for you alone to handle.

- who scrutinised the documents and decided the 'Notice to Keeper' served (if one was received at the start) was compliant with the POFA, and therefore a matter under which a registered keeper company could be liable at all in law? Bearing in mind many parking firms do not use POFA versions, and can only ever hold drivers liable, not companies, it cannot be assumed that a company are liable just because a letter says so in bold scary lettering, nor even just because a firm files a speculative small claim, knowing hire firms simply don't handle these properly and might cough up.

- was the 'court letter' merely a non-compliant threat of court (Letter before Claim)? Who scrutinised that and why did the firm not simply refer the writer to the new pre-action protocol for debt claims and name you as the hirer, giving your address?

- where in the t&cs of hire do they contend that this procedure they have rushed to follow (ignoring the PCN then panicking & paying & demanding the money from you) is allowed, when this was not a 'fine' nor penalty from any 'authority'?

- why did they not simply discharge liability by naming the hirer (making right their earlier omission) when they received what they are describing as a 'court letter'?

- What was that 'court letter' - a claim? If so, they were the Defendant, not you, and you are not liable for their mistakes in process or ignorance of the BVRLA/BPA Memorandum of Understanding , which is what they should have followed.

- tell them you dispute this charge and they have denied you your right to appeal it.

- ask why they are misleading you about the CCJ process, patronising you and saying COMPLETELY WRONGLY that ''if it goes to Court then you will have a CCJ placed against you and your address which as you may or may not know will make it extremely difficult for you to obtain credit in the future." A person does NOT ''get a CCJ'' if a case goes to court. If it did and the Defendant loses, all they do is pay within 30 days of the decision - no CCJ and no effect on credit rating at all, in fact. Demand they explain themselves/pass this complaint to the Legal Dept.

- And, in addition to their wholly incorrect threat of a CCJ, if they contend this sum is a 'debt' why they appear to also be ignorant of the new pre-action protocol regarding debt claims (effective from 1st October 2017)? Ask who the overseeing solicitor is, within their Legal Department, because you wish to make a complaint about their conduct.

- tell them you wish to escalate the matter using the ADR/dispute resolution provided by the BVRLA, should they reach the end of the company's own complaints procedure, and as such, any reply must include the steps to take to use that ADR, as well as the name of the solicitor acting for the 'Legal Department'.

Redx

there is no "penalty" , and no "fine" either

all there was is a pcn , an invoice raised by ELITE and then ZZPS doing the back office work

this was sent to GB VEHICLE HIRE who should have followed BVRLA guidelines from 3 years ago and named the hirer/lessee

then that lessee (you) would have received a PCN in your name from ELITE to appeal in your own name

under POFA2012 they are liable until they discharge that ;iability and name the lessee

so you would think that a judge would tell them , you are at fault for not naming the lessee and then letting the lessee deal with this invoice

so let them issue an MCOL and defend it in such a manner

and follow the other advice above by coupon-mad too

NotSoLuckyLuke

Hello everyone again, thank you very much for your previous pieces of advice. This is what I wrote to GB Vehicle Hire:

I am writing to you regarding letter received on 02/11/2017 which was sent to me to inform me that during the lease of the car Vauxhall Astra (reg followed) I incurred a parking " charge on the 03/04/2017 (Summer Row Car Park). Furthermore you informed me that this fine was paid by you to prevent the court action.
I would like to inform you that I am not liable to refund the fine you paid on my behalf, because this was your error that you did not comply with the process set out by BVRLA and in the BPA/BVRLA Memorandum of Understanding, singed in 2013, following the change in the law within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the POFA)
Why did you not discharge potential liability by providing the necessary details of lessee/hirer, in accordance with paragraph 13/14 of the POFA, schedule 4? By not doing this you disabled me from appealing against this PCN. At that instance you would had been discharged from any potential liability, making a matter for me alone to handle.
Who scrutinise the documents and decides the 'Notice to Keeper' served (if one was received at the start) was compliant with the POFA, and therefore a matter under which a registered keeper company could be liable at all in law?
Why when a 'court letter' (as you described it) was received, it was not scrutinised, and you did not name me a as the hirer, giving my address?
Where in Terms Conditions of the hire, do you contend that procedure you have rushed to follow (ignoring the PCN, then panicking and paying it, then demanding money from me as reimbursement) is allowed, when this is not a fine nor penalty' from any authority?
Why did you not simply discharge liability by naming me as a hirer (making right your earlier omission), when you received what you call a 'court letter'?
I am disputing this charge and you have denied me the right to appeal against it. Until now I have not received any evidence of my unauthorised parking, I don't recall being in this place on that day. First date I was made aware of this alleged PCN was on 23/10/17, which is more than six months after I allegedly parked a car in unauthorised manner, which I deny.

Why do you mislead me about the CCJ process, patronising me and saying completely wrongly that: "if it goes to Court then you will have a CCJ placed against you and your address which as you may or may not know will make it extremely difficult for you to obtain credit in the future" in the letter from you dated 02/11/2017?
Can you please advise me who is the overseeing solicitor within you Legal Department, as I wish to make a complaint about you conduct relating to your wholly incorrect threat of a CCJ.

Finally I wish to escalate the matter using the ADR/dispute resolution provided by the BVRLA. Could you please provide me the name of the solicitor from your Legal Department? Also I would like your Legal Department to follow complaints procedure as outline in ADR.

Below is the letter I received from GB Vehicle Hire:

17/11/17

I acknowledge receipt of you latter dated 12/11/2017. Please find enclosed a copy of you Hire Agreement from with your signature on the owner liability section. This section states that the person who has signed for liability is solely responsible for any charges relating to the hire of the vehicle, ie speeding fines, parking fines.

You said to me that you haven't' received any correspondence or had any time to appeal this PCN.
Firstly the person who came down to our office had a copy of the PCN in his hand and since then we have received confirmation for the issue of the PCN that they sent out to you 2 letters one on the 23/10/2017 and the second on the 06/11/2017. They also stated that you responded to them by telephone. Please find a copy of the confirmation enclosed.

We are still proceeding with measures to recoup the money from you that we have paid.

Amount due £233.00

You have 7 days from the date on this letter to settle the amount in full or we will being legal action against you. You will also be liable for all Court costs."

What they stated in their letter is a lie I went to the office only with documents which were sent to my by ZZPS on 23/10/2017 and document sent to me by GB Vehicle Hire on 02/11/17. I have never found a PCN on the windscreen. I contacted ZZPS as wanted the evidence of my unauthorised parking, and until today I have not received anything.

Below a content of the enclosed document:

Good Morning

Thank you for your call.

As requested, this e-mail is being sent to confirm the dates we sent out correspondence to the driver of this vehicle.
Please note, the driver has called in the response to our letters dated 08.11.2017.
We sent out two letters dated 23.10.2017 and 06.11.2017"
I can confirm a payment has been made and the matter is now closed.

Below Terms and Conditions of GB Vehicle Hire:

Fixed Penalties etc.
15. The hirer shall be liable as the owner of the vehicle in respect of: -
a) Any fixed penalty offence committed in respect of that vehicle under Part III and the relevant schedules of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 as amended by the Parking Act 1989 and as those provisions may be amended or replaced from time to time and
b) Any excess charge which may be incurred in respect of the vehicle in pursuance of an order under Section 45 and 46 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended by the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and by the Parking Act 1989 and as those provisions may be amended or replaced from time to time and
c) Any financial penalty or charge which may be demanded by any person, corporation or Authority as a result of the vehicle having been parked or left upon land which is not a public road"

I decided to ignore the letter from GB Vehicle Hire as they did not address my points at all.

On the 01/12/17 I received a letter from County Court Business Centre which says:

Particulars of Claim
Customer received a parking fine and refused to pay it. We have paid the fine and we are claiming the money back from the customer. The customer signed the Owner Liability on the Hire Agreement Form which holds the customer liable for any fines relating to the hire of one of our vehicles.
I will provide the defendant with separate detailed particulars within 14 days after service of the claim form. The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 19/11/2017 to 301/112017 on £233 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment and a daily rate of %1.00.%

I understand that I have 14 days to respond to this Claim Form. Could you please advise me on how I should be progressing this case.

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

nosferatu1001

Wow, you ignored their woeful letter before claim. Not a good idea!

You DO NOT acknowledge the claim UNTIL you get those PoC.
What is the DATE OF ISSUE of the claim form? They have 19 days for you to receive these PoC.

Helpfully they have described this as a "fine". This is NOT a fine. However 15(c) may cover them.

DO NOT IGNORE FURTHER. Your letter was pretty awful - a rambling mess which did not address the matter at hand, but will show you at least attempted to narrow the issues. Their response is pretty terrible, and does not meet the requirements of the new PAP for debt claims. This is NOT a defence as such, but should be briefly mentioned in the defence.

YOu must must must not say they have "lied". THey may be mistaken etc, just dont say lie. You need a
Clear
Timeline
Of
Events

Exactlyt what letters were sent, when , what you got, when etc.

The_Deep

If it goes to Court then you will have a CCJ placed against you and your address which as you may or may not know will make it extremely difficult for you to obtain credit in the future

Have you reported this in writing to your local Trading Standards Officer? It is wholly untrue. You only get a CCJ if a judge finds against you and you ignore his/her ruling.

NotSoLuckyLuke

Thank you for your reply.
Just to summarise this case:
- I allegedly parked in unauthorised way at Summer Row Car Park, Birmingham University on the 03/04/2017 15:15. I have checked Google Map and there is no car park on this street just normal street parking. Also there is no Birmingham University but University College of Birmingham. I don't know if any private company can issue PCN on Council's streets? Nevertheless I had never been parking at this location and street. This is very short street in Birmingham. I was also making notes where I am working in my diary, I have also checked timesheet with my boss and that shows me working at the other side of Birmingham.
- Alleged PCN was issued by Elite Management Midlands LTD on the 03/04/2017. I had never received any letters from Elite Management Midlands LTD.
I only got a letter from their debt collectors ZZPS on 23/10/17. Until that time I had not known of any PCNs, as mentioned before I had not found any one on the windscreen during the lease period.
- GB Vehicle Hire (Car Rental Company) paid they fine on my behalf on the 02/11/17 to prevent as they called it 'court actions'. This letter was from Solicitors' Firm Wright Hassal. Although GB Vehicle Hire paid the fine on my behalf, letter from ZZPS 06/11/17 (debt collectors) was still demanding payment from me so it looks light they wanted to double charge the owner and the hirer.
- I followed instructions given by Coupon-mad and I wrote to GB Vehicle Hire (my letter may not have been the best one, but English is not my first language) and complained that they denied my the right to appeal against this PCN, as no evidence was presented to my of my unauthorised parking. I had also mentioned their T&C (rewrote them for your benefit):

Below Terms and Conditions of GB Vehicle Hire:

Fixed Penalties etc.
15. The hirer shall be liable as the owner of the vehicle in respect of: -
a) Any fixed penalty offence committed in respect of that vehicle under Part III and the relevant schedules of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 as amended by the Parking Act 1989 and as those provisions may be amended or replaced from time to time and
b) Any excess charge which may be incurred in respect of the vehicle in pursuance of an order under Section 45 and 46 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended by the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and by the Parking Act 1989 and as those provisions may be amended or replaced from time to time and
c) Any financial penalty or charge which may be demanded by any person, corporation or Authority as a result of the vehicle having been parked or left upon land which is not a public road"
There is nothing in there stating that they have the rights to pay any penalties on my behalf and seeking reimbursement from me.
- on the 01/12/17 got a Claim Form from County Court Business Centre:
Stating that GB Vehicle Hire Paid a fine on my behalf and are now claiming the money back. But still until now there is no evidence presented to my that I was parked in unauthorised way on Summer Row Car Park Birmingham University.

I would like to dispute this claim. As far as I am concern:
- I still have not received any proof
- I cannot recall ever been parked at Summer Row Car Park Birmingham University
- Summer Row in Birmingham looks like public road and would not expect any private company to issue PCN
- Even if I am finally presented with the evidence of my wrong doing, I was denied the right to appeal against this PCN as the owner of the car GB Vehicle Hire had not discharge potential liabilities in April as outlined in POFA paragraphs 13/14 (I am quoting what Coupon-mad stated)

So what do you guys recommend, what is the best strategy to defend this claim? I do not want to make some silly mistakes (as mentioned English is not my first language), so my defense will fall through.

Best regards

KeithP

I'm not going to suggest how you resolve this, just going to make one point...

You need to understand the terms - fine, fixed penalty, invoice, parking charge notice, penalty charge notice, etc.

As Redx has already said, this is not a fine, and there is no penalty.

Even in you latest post you tell us "GB Vehicle Hire (Car Rental Company) paid they fine..."

They did not pay a fine.

This issue probably hinges on whether GB Vehicle Hire had the right to pay an invoice from a private parking company on your behalf.

Half_way

As above, using and understanding the correct terms is critical.
Call it a fine or penalty when dealing with the hire company add it will make your life difficult.

Half_way

As above, using and understanding the correct terms is critical.
Call it a fine or penalty when dealing with the hire company add it will make your life difficult.

NotSoLuckyLuke

Thank you for pointing this out to me...

So GB Vehicle Hire in Particulars of Claim has not stated the truth by saying:

"Customer received the fine and refused to pay it. We have paid the fine and we are claiming the money from customer."

So if they have paid the invoice from the third party. This could be one way of defense.

I only used terminology 'fine' when I referred to the sentence in the letter from GB Vehicle Hire sent to me on the 02/11/17.

How about the other points that: GB did not discharge the liability, Elite Management LTD had not contacted me, GB's Terms & Conditions.

If I have to pay this money this would cause the precedence that Car Rental Company is paying invoices, or even fines on behalf of hirer and then demands the reimbursement.

Thank you.