Smart Meters

Gerry1

Highland76 said:

You’re doing it again Gerry1, judging others by your own standards.

I'm not judging anyone.  I'm just pointing out the obvious error in your claim that smart meters are paid for by the energy companies.  Obviously, the truth is that the poor old consumer ends up paying for them whether they want them or not: their bills are higher than they would otherwise need to be.  The energy companies aren't philanthropic organisations splashing shedloads of cash around, it all has to come from their customers.

Highland76 said:

That £475 smart meter cost pretty much guarantees the energy company won’t be giving out free energy to the tune of £1000s to any smart meter customer as is the case currently with many customers on standard meters. 

It does no such thing.  Many of them have gone dumb, didn't you know?  Many others don't phone home because of network problems.  And how does having a smart meter guarantee the customer always pays the bill?  If a customer was thousands of pounds in debt, the energy company would have installed pre-payment meters.  Unlike smart meters, the costs of pre-payment meters is borne only by customers who have them, not the whole population: the cheapest prepaid tariff is £210/yr more expensive than the cheapest billed tariff on the same usage.

Highland76 said:

With smart meters estimated bills are a thing of the past, at the very least it will open the eyes of certain customers who see how much energy they are using.

Unfortunately it probably won't.  Most customers are on Fixed Direct Debit and they think only in terms of ££/month, not kWh; there are hundreds of posts on this forum complaining that 'I was promised my DD would be £X per month and it's suddenly been increased to £Y'.

Variable Direct Debit would soon alert customers to increased usage, but few companies offer this.

Highland76

Ok let’s assume the customer pays for the cost of the smart meters through increased energy bills. So why would  nearly every one of the big 6 providers charge LESS for a smart meter tariff....surely the opposite should be true? If going through a energy comparison site, the smart meter tariffs with some of the big 6 providers are very competitively priced, certainly far cheaper than their standard tariffs. I’m paying 2.05p kWh for gas and 13.90p kWh for electric with EDF on a smart meter only tariff. Those are rather strange prices if I’m supposed to be paying back the cost of my free smets2 meter through increased energy costs. 

Gerry1

Highland76 said:

Ok let’s assume the customer pays for the cost of the smart meters through increased energy bills.

Glad to see you've admitted that smart meters aren't free, and that customers are footing the £475 bills rather than the energy companies. 

Highland76 said:

So why would  nearly every one of the big 6 providers charge LESS for a smart meter tariff....surely the opposite should be true?

Because the big energy companies get heavily fined if they don't meet government targets to install smart meters !  So they punish customers by charging them more if they exercise their right not to have smart meters .

Highland76 said:

I’m paying 2.05p kWh for gas and 13.90p kWh for electric with EDF on a smart meter only tariff. Those are rather strange prices if I’m supposed to be paying back the cost of my free smets2 meter through increased energy costs. 

You're paying 14.7% more than I do for electricity (or 20.4% if you forgot VAT), and I don't have a smart meter ! 

Your daily charge may well also be higher.

carl.waring

oldandwizend said:

Highland76 said:

No Gerry1, it’s the energy companies paying for the smart meters. However the cost of providing free smart meters is just a tiny fraction of the energy debts owed by customers who hardly ever provide a meter reading and/or use copious amounts of energy but don’t pay for it fully. Unless you think it’s ok for energy companies to provide free energy? With smart meters estimated bills are a thing of the past, at the very least it will open the eyes of certain customers who see how much energy they are using. Or to be very blunt, smart meter customers can have their energy supply disconnected earlier if they refuse to pay their bills. So that £475 investment may well save the energy companies £1000s in unpaid energy bills. 

Please - for the millionth time - don’t assume everyone is as energy savvy as you. 

Admittedly 2 to 3 years ago but

"An investigation into the energy market by the Competition and Markets Authority concluded last year that the big six suppliers were overcharging by £1.4bn annually"

I doubt little has changed so £1000s in unpaid bills may be miniscule in comparison to overcharging.

Unfortunately far too many people do not bother comparing tariffs and just stick with what they have.

Some companies do, at least, now tell you that you may be better with a different tariff/supplier but it is a bit half hearted and how many people bother reading their bills in detail to see this?

Newer and smaller companies are starting to stir the market up a bit but doubt is being cast on how long they will survive.

Regrettably it is a fact of modern life that the 'savvy' ones will always do better in most aspects of day to day life. We now live in a world where, for a large percentage of people, it is 'me, me, me and sod you'. Recent activity on beaches, marches, pubs etc. etc. proves the point.

And since then OFGEM have indeed started dictating how much can be charged by energy companies for their standard variable tariffs.
Energy companies do what they can like, as you said, stating on bills if money can be saved. It is not their fault if customers don't read their bills. In the same way that customers who don't give reads can - to start with at least, until their billing is corrected - either pay too much or too little for their energy use. They have to take their share of the blame as energy companies can only do so much.

carl.waring

Gerry1 said:

Highland76 said:

You’re doing it again Gerry1, judging others by your own standards.

I'm not judging anyone.  I'm just pointing out the obvious error in your claim that smart meters are paid for by the energy companies.  Obviously, the truth is that the poor old consumer ends up paying for them whether they want them or not: their bills are higher than they would otherwise need to be.  The energy companies aren't philanthropic organisations splashing shedloads of cash around, it all has to come from their customers.

Highland76 said:

That £475 smart meter cost pretty much guarantees the energy company won’t be giving out free energy to the tune of £1000s to any smart meter customer as is the case currently with many customers on standard meters. 

It does no such thing.  Many of them have gone dumb, didn't you know?  Many others don't phone home because of network problems.  And how does having a smart meter guarantee the customer always pays the bill?  If a customer was thousands of pounds in debt, the energy company would have installed pre-payment meters.  Unlike smart meters, the costs of pre-payment meters is borne only by customers who have them, not the whole population: the cheapest prepaid tariff is £210/yr more expensive than the cheapest billed tariff on the same usage.

Highland76 said:

With smart meters estimated bills are a thing of the past, at the very least it will open the eyes of certain customers who see how much energy they are using.

Unfortunately it probably won't.  Most customers are on Fixed Direct Debit and they think only in terms of ££/month, not kWh; there are hundreds of posts on this forum complaining that 'I was promised my DD would be £X per month and it's suddenly been increased to £Y'.

Variable Direct Debit would soon alert customers to increased usage, but few companies offer this.

No. No-one's bills are "higher than they need to be". If you're on a fixed-price tariff you won't be paying any more for standing charge or unit rate than already agreed. New tariff prices may well have higher SC and UR but higher pricing isn't limited to just energy companies. 


The "dumb" ones are now starting to be firmware-upgraded to be smart again with any supplier. (My comment is, again, specific to nPower but would assume other companies are doing the same.)


Yes, because their energy consumption has increased beyond that which was expected when it was reviewed and set at £x per month. That's how it works.

And I don't think monthly variable DD is a thing for any company; energy or otherwise. Quarterly variable, yes; not monthly.

brijanhub

I object most strongly to companies agreeing a yearly tariff and then when they find the customer owes them money during the winter period, put up the monthly DD. We budget every year and if we, and the Utility Company, get their consumption estimate right it will balance out at the end of the year. I therefor object to a variable DD which is mis used by the Utility Companies to boost their capital and is not to the benefit of the customer.

JJ_Egan

But its not a Yearly Tariff . Its a standing charge daily and a per unit used cost .

victor2

brijanhub said:

I object most strongly to companies agreeing a yearly tariff and then when they find the customer owes them money during the winter period, put up the monthly DD. We budget every year and if we, and the Utility Company, get their consumption estimate right it will balance out at the end of the year. I therefor object to a variable DD which is mis used by the Utility Companies to boost their capital and is not to the benefit of the customer.

Few, if any, companies agree on a "yearly tariff", but a fixed rate per kWh and fixed standing charge for a year (or more). Some do increase their DD in the winter months to recover the extra cost due to winter heating, and then decrease it in the summer.

There are many people have experienced significant adjustments to their DD when suppliers review their usage and need to cover any debit balance built up by a DD set too low. Some of those adjustments seem to be based on unfathomable calculations - customer services just declare "the computer says..." I have had to call a supplier to request them NOT to make the proposed reduction to my DD, as my calculations said I was on track to hit a zero balance by the end of the contract, as indeed I was.

A variable DD contract is AFAIK paying for the utilities after you have used them, so will not boost the supplier's capital as they are already owed the money.

Gerry1

brijanhub said:

I object most strongly to companies agreeing a yearly tariff and then when they find the customer owes them money during the winter period, put up the monthly DD. We budget every year and if we, and the Utility Company, get their consumption estimate right it will balance out at the end of the year. I therefor object to a variable DD which is mis used by the Utility Companies to boost their capital and is not to the benefit of the customer.

You've completely misunderstood what a Variable Direct Debit is.  It simply means you are billed each month according to what you have used; provided you submit monthly meter readings, you never build up a credit or debit balance.

It works just like a petrol pump, except that the payment is collected automatically rather than you having to go into the kiosk or pay at the pump.

Much easier to understand, and much earlier warning if you're using energy more than expected.

Talldave

Symbio use variable direct debit.  It would be perfect if it wasn't for their stupid over-estimating algorithm.  Even with the quirk of the silly estimates, it still works a month in arrears.  Sadly, you need a PhD in Maths to understand their convoluted bills.