Help. Breastfeeding parking fine

Rmac84

Ok, so this is what I have prepared to send as my comments to the operator evidence. Please could anyone advise if this is ok? ...........


My comments on the operator evidence are as follows:

NO EVIDENCE OF LANDOWNER AUTHORITY – they have merely uploaded a copy of a letter (on Britannia own headed paper), which claims to be proof of Landowner authority. The letter has blanked out sections and therefore I cannot see any proof that this letter has genuinely been signed by the Landowner. Leading me to conclude that they have not proven the Landlord authority.

Further, they have not provided the following:
- unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner;
- The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights;

This is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge.

Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements, which are not included in the information they have provided, in particular 7.3 of the BPA CoP. They have failed to provide this.

SIGNAGE – I believe that the information the operator has provided does not prove that the signage is ‘prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces’. The evidence photographs that I provided demonstrate that many of the signs are obscured due to being positioned at a low height. Therefore, when a car is parked in front it is not ‘prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces’. They have not rebutted the issue regarding the height level of their signs.

They have failed to provide strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective.

They have also not rebutted the issue that the main signs at the pay machine are not facing outwards into the car park, therefore are only clearly readable when stood in front, not from a car.

They have stated that they do ‘offer a late payment option should an overstay happen, we allow up to 48 hours after the driver has left the car park to call to make a late payment should the driver contact us’, however this is not visible on any of the signage.

Grace Period – the operator has just referenced the BPA 10 mins. They have not responded to my point regarding the BPA section 16 and specifically not provided ‘evidence of their policies for dealing with disabled and breastfeeding mothers and how they comply with section 16’.

They have not proven when I entered into a contract i.e. seeing signage, therefore when the grace period started.

Discrimination – Their response “Under the Equality Act 2010 there has been no discrimination. Britannia Parking do allow for breast feeding on site however we kindly request users pay for the entire duration of their parking while on site” suggests that they have not given ‘reasonable consideration to mitigating circumstances and the mitigating circumstances prevented the motorist from keeping to the parking conditions’, which I am aware that POPLA is able to request that a parking operator cancels a parking charge if POPLA if they have not done so.

The Equality Act 2010 covers disabled persons, as well as breastfeeding mothers. Section 16 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice states that “You and your staff also need to realise that some disabled people may take a long time to get to the payment machine.” Therefore, this adjustment for disabled persons should also apply for breastfeeding mothers. They have not rebutted this.

KeithP

Rmac84 wrote: »

They have not proven when I entered into a contract i.e. seeing signage, therefore when the grace period started.

Doesn't the first grace period end when the contract is entered into?

Sorry, I may not be understanding what you are trying to say here, but really that's the point... if I'm not understanding, perhaps it needs to be clearer so the PoPLA rep doesn't get it wrong.

Rmac84

KeithP wrote: »

Doesn't the first grace period end when the contract is entered into?

Sorry, I may not be understanding what you are trying to say here, but really that's the point... if I'm not understanding, perhaps it needs to be clearer so the PoPLA rep doesn't get it wrong.

Hi Keith, I thought you needed to see the signage in order for the grace period to start. As I am saying that signage was insufficient, I am therefore saying that I did not see the signs until I got to the pay machines (after I breastfed my baby). So technically I didn't overstay the normal grace periods? I am not sure how true this is or if it is a strong point. But it was in the original appeal. Any further advice appreciate. Thanks

Redx

under normal circumstances, the initial grace period isnt specified but is considered to be between 5 and 10 minutes , typically 5 minutes to park up , get out and read the signs and comply (not do anything else)

and the second grace period is OVER 10 minutes to leave the car park , depending on traffic flow etc (once the actual parking period has finished)

so somebody like myself with no children to sort out should adhere to the above

the fact that I am covered by the EA2010 means they "should" allow me longer , perhaps up to twice the grace period ? , or on a council car park they allow either 1 extra hour for myself, or they double the parking period, depending on who owns the car park (in this case the council or my local hospital etc)

so your comments on grace periods should "try" to stay within those simple guidelines wherever possible

the total "overstay" was 28 minutes , across TWO grace periods , so longer to park up, sort out the baby and comply with the signage

you paid for 2 hours , so there was no intention to "not pay" for parking , so no "bilking"

they should allow MORE THAN 10 minutes to leave , especially a nursing mother with more things to do

they have not refuted those ideas

Rmac84

Thanks Redx. I have edited the Grace period comments. Does this sound ok?.... ..

Grace Period – the operator has just referenced the BPA guidance of 10 mins. They have not responded to my point regarding the BPA section 16 and specifically not provided ‘evidence of their policies for dealing with disabled and breastfeeding mothers and how they comply with section 16’.

I paid for 2 hours, so there was no intention to "not pay" for parking, so this was not "bilking". A “normal” person would be allowed 10 minutes either side, so a total of 20 minutes. The total "overstay" was 28 minutes, across TWO grace periods, therefore 8 additional minutes. Additional time is needed for nursing, settling baby, putting up and down a buggy, putting baby into the buggy, as cannot leave baby in car alone etc. The fact that I am covered by the EA2010 means they "should" allow me longer, perhaps up to twice the grace period? Some council car parks allow either 1 extra hour for myself, or they double the parking period, depending on who owns the car park. They have not refuted those ideas. Nor have they shown to take any special consideration of the circumstances.

Redx

not quite , the second grace period is to leave thge car park, and is a MINIMUM of 10 minutes, in fact OVER 10 minutes, but could be 20 minutes , an hour , more

depends on the queue of traffic waiting to leave or on the main road , blocking the entrance and/or exit

so if you were delayed in leaving by an extra 10 minutes, on top of the 11 minutes allowed as a minimum , plus say 8 minutes at the beginning , then there is no actual "overstay"

this is in addition to doubling the time allowed due to being covered under the EA2010 as a nursing mother (I am making assumptions here but you get the idea)

so its not "10 minutes either side"

you dont want to put that idea in their heads like you did with my head just now

on council car parks near me , you pay for an hour , you get an hour free by displaying a blue badge (might be the same for 2 hours payment , not sure) - but this does not address people covered by the EA2010 who cannot obtain a blue badge. these people are still covered by the act - regardless

so I suggest you try to get the leaving period to be 11 or more minutes and the initial period to be greater due to the fact of nbeing a nursing mother distracted by a child, plus as you say they did not address the issue that a nursing mother needs more time at either end

hope that clarifies it from a man`s perspective as being sympathetic to your circumstances ?

ps:- the BPA CoP does not clarify what the initial grace period should be , but does say that the operator should disclose it when asked , so what is their grace period for a nursing mother given the baby may need feeding , get the trolley out and erect it, put the baby into it , close car doors and boot hatch , lock the vehicle , push trolley to the machines , read the signs , pay for a ticket for 2 hours etc

then do it all in reverse, and exit the car park too , past the ANPR cameras at the exit, before the TIME ON SITE stops

so doubling the time of each grace period seems fair , which is far greater than the alleged "overstay"

Rmac84

Redx, I'll be honest, I am a Taf confused. I get what you're saying but finding it hard to concisely put into an appeal point. Especially as I am not meant to add further information.

As you mentioned BPA cop does not specify the initial grace period, which is where the 'overstay' occurred. Britannia have revealed that their policy is 10 minutes either side.

Maybe I should push the point that the BPA COP doesn't actually specify the initial period???

Here's is my latest edit. ......

Grace Period – the operator has just referenced the BPA guidance of 10 mins. The BPA CoP doesn't actually specify what the minimum initial grace period should be, only the grace period after. Britannia Parking have stated in their comments that their policy is 10 minutes. However they have not responded regarding additional time that they allow for disabled or breastfeeding mothers. Additional time should be considered in this instance as time to settle baby, feed baby, set the pram down, put baby in pram, secure car, walk to payment machine, find payment etc.

The fact that I am covered by the EA2010 means they "should" allow me longer, perhaps up to twice the grace period? Some council car parks allow either 1 extra hour for myself, or they double the parking period, depending on who owns the car park. They have not refuted those ideas. Nor have they shown to take any special consideration of the circumstances.

I paid for 2 hours, so there was no intention to not pay for parking, so this was not 'bilking'.

They have not responded to my point regarding the BPA CoP section 16 and specifically not provided ‘evidence of their policies for dealing with disabled and breastfeeding mothers and how they comply with section 16' of the BPA CoP.

Redx

yep, I agree with you that its not easy to put into words, but I have to rely on your knowledge of events and what previous posters have said , like umkomaas for example , who talked about the initial unspecified period having more flexibility


I have edited your edit in the quote below , see what you think ?

Rmac84 wrote: »

Grace Period – the operator has just referenced the BPA guidance of 10 mins for the departure grace period. The BPA CoP doesn't actually specify what the minimum initial grace period should be for this, only the minimum grace period after.

Britannia Parking have stated in their comments that their policy is 10 minutes. However they have not responded regarding additional time that they allow for disabled or breastfeeding mothers.

Additional time should be considered in this instance as time to settle baby, feed baby, set the pram down, put baby in pram, secure car, walk to payment machine, find payment etc.

The fact that I am covered by the EA2010 means they "should" allow me longer, perhaps up to twice the implied or actual grace period for each of the two grace periods allowed by the CoP ?

Some council car parks allow either 1 extra hour for myself, or they double the parking period, depending on who owns the car park. They have not refuted those ideas. Nor have they shown to take any special consideration of the circumstances.

I paid for 2 hours, so there was no intention to not pay for parking, so this was not 'bilking'.

They have not responded to my point regarding the BPA CoP section 16 and specifically not provided ‘evidence of their policies for dealing with disabled and breastfeeding mothers and how they comply with section 16' of the BPA CoP.

Rmac84

Is this the edited bit.....

"" The fact that I am covered by the EA2010 means they "should" allow me longer, perhaps up to twice the implied or actual grace period for each of the two grace periods allowed by the CoP ? ""

This would suggest doubling the 10 minutes BPA COP? Which means 20 mins. However my breach was 24 minutes upon entering plus 3 minutes at the end. Should I remove the doubling suggestion?

Redx

mmm , this was why I found it difficult to reword it , due to your knowledge of the facts being greater than mine

the way I look at it was that the driver paid for 120 minutes and the vehicle was on site for 148 minutes , so BRIT believe that either 18 minutes wasnt paid for and the driver should be penalised for it , or an extra 28 minutes should have been paid for

the fact is that the driver didnt bother to check the details upon entering and parking and so had no idea what the contract terms were until they read the sign at the payment meters

BRIT might argue its on the signs when you enter the car park, but they dont allow a stopping bay to stop and read said entrance sign , and there is so much writing on them that nobody can read the t & c`s from a moving vehicle

their next opportunity is when the vehicle is parked and the driver can clearly read a sign that should be near the vehicle and be able to be read at any time in all weathers - they may well have failed here too

so your issue is that you did not know a contract had been entered into until you read the signs and paid for a ticket

BRIT will say the initial grace period covers this on an assumption that you and they make, but they failed to tell you or popla what that initial time for your particular case should be , so it could be one hour if you paid for 2 hours , who knows ?

so yes, try to word it such that you dont steer the assessor towards BRIT , has sympathy for your case and looks at the unspecified time that they failed to mention and allows a greater time due to mitigation

hard to word this, I know, I have tried , lol

you can only do your best at the end of the day