Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

I do not trust the eu elite as far as I can throw them, they tend to say one thing and do another

You could say exactly the same thing about the Brexit campaigners.


"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"
~Daniel Hannan MEP, Leave campaigner


"Only a madman would actually leave the Market"
~Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer


"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing"
~Nigel Farage, Ukip leader


"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK"
~Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

Herzlos

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

France had to vote again after rejecting the original eu constitution.

The Irish had to vote again after rejecting the Nice treaty and of course after rejecting the euro.

Did either vote again for the same deal, or different deals?

Arklight

cogito wrote: »

Going back 45 years to when Heath [STRIKE]dragged[/STRIKE] took us into the Common Market, there was never an honest debate about the pros and cons of membership and herein lies the problem. Heath's lies are on record and the public has distrusted the whole experiment ever since.

Has we had that debate and been able to trust the politicians, we would either not have joined or would have signed up with the consent of the people. That we are now leaving, is merely the culmination of the arguments of those 45 years. There have been lies on both sides but the big one is that the UK would not be giving up any sovereignty and parliament would remain supreme.

Meanwhile, in 2018...

kabayiri

ukcarper wrote: »

I'm not sure you are right adopting EURO would be very bad and that alone would stop many people voting remain.

I will wager now that the "Re-enter" campaign will fudge the issue on the Euro.

They will kick the can down the road, and say it's a tomorrow problem.

The EURO is terrible for us given our trading deficit. But...it's great for Germany, which is the main thing!

westernpromise

.string. wrote: »

Wakey wakey - during the referendum the remain campaign pointed out with a great deal of effort, referencing studies, statistics, opinions and warnings what would happen.

That was just Project Fear, much of which was transparent lies. Obama's intervention was a scripted lie, the giveaway being when he said Britain would be at the back of the queue. Americans don't say queue, they say line. That threat was plainly written in London.

Will the EU impose a Tobin tax post-Remain knowing that London has half of the EU's financial market? Yes or no?

Will the EU demand we give up our UN security council seat to the losers of WW2 post-Remain?

Will the EU guarantee UK security as well as NATO?

How do you know? The answer is you don't, but Remain's history of dishonouring referendum results and so on did not fill me with confidence in its integrity.

Remain's three biggest campaign mistakes in my view were

1/ to bring up the subject of lying at all without apparently considering whether this might be a net negative for Remain;
2/ to fail to articulate what we would be Remaining in, perhaps because this would have entailed admitting that this wasn't in Remain hands any more than NHS funding was in Leave's; and
3/ to rely on Project Fear without understanding that to many it sounded better than their actual experience of Project Federal Europe.

Ex post Remain's reaction seems mainly to be to hurl abuse at Leavers for being thick racists, and to try to use its control of the Establishment to subvert the result. Both have tended to reinforce what Leavers thought of Remainers and to have solidified opinions.

Arklight

westernpromise wrote: »

It's a wholly legitimate question I think and is the reason I didn't vote.

We don't know what Leave looks like.
We don't know what Remain looks like.

How can anyone vote for either?

Great, a link from the Express which comes with it's own tinfoil hat and email alert to the Express' UFO Hotline, and something from the Telegraph showing a previous UK Prime Minister blocking EU militarisation. Something we will be utterly incapable of doing next year thanks to Leavers.

Great job.

westernpromise

Herzlos wrote: »

I don't think there will ever be a 3rd referendum, Brexiteers are too enraged at the idea of a 2nd one, and I think everyone will give up on it by a 3rd.

Actually I think it would be a good idea to have one every five years like general elections. As has been noted above, with other areas of how we are governed we get the option every five years to reset it, but with the EU every party has been Remainer since 1983. The European Parliament is likewise a farce - there's no opposition. Everyone agrees with the agenda, apart from UKIP, who are just Strasbourg's version of Sinn Fein.

The EU is thus not democratically accountable in the way it should be and in that sense resembles the USSR, where they held elections but all the candidates were Communists.

The best reform the EU could offer that would have got my pro-Remain vote was if they made Leave / Remain referenda mandatory in every country every 5 to 10 years. If the project is so worthwhile and essential, what have they to fear?

westernpromise

ukcarper wrote: »

If they are going to have another referendum they will have to tell us if we are going to lose rebate and have to accept EURO and if we do this remain voter will vote leave and I suspect I would be a long way from being alone.

If the EU said we won't lose the rebate and won't have to implement the euro, would you believe them?

mayonnaise

GDP up by 0.4% in both euro area and EU28

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/8897618/2-15052018-BP-EN.pdf/defecccc-f9d9-4636-b7f8-d401357aca46

UK bottom of the pile again at +0.1%

Arklight

mayonnaise wrote: »

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/8897618/2-15052018-BP-EN.pdf/defecccc-f9d9-4636-b7f8-d401357aca46

UK bottom of the pile again at +0.1%

Turnip yield in allotments us up 3% though.