Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

mrginge

I remember the good old days when Barnier categorically refused to talk trade and withdrawal in parallel, despite the UKs position that the two were inherently linked.

Strange then that we now seem to be doing exactly that. Almost as though the EU have been completely mugged off and finally realised they got knack all actually confirmed in December.

But still, well done the EU on sticking to those principles.

Theophile

Four_Two wrote: »

Just because you don't believe something doesn't make your vision true. MP's do what the majority of their electorate voted for them to do or they don't get re-elected = no more cushy job. Ask Nick Clegg who coincidentally was a member of the only party advocating staying in the EU at the time he lost his seat.

And another one!

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

Yup.


Honestly? I have no idea. I think a lot feel like they need to placate their constituents. It's even more bizarre in that voting against would make life so much harder for the Tories



Absolutely. They need to fiure out why people are demanding what they are, and address that.

In engineering, when dealing with customer requests, it;s important to get to a root cause and solve the customers actual problem, not the thing they've asked for.

Did they vote Brexit to help fund the NHS or boost local services?
Because of house prices?
Because they feel we spend too much on benefits for foreigners?

It's entirely possible (and indeed likely) that you can solve most of their problems without Brexit (which might not actually solve anything).

17 million people voted for Brexit, MPs should be finding out why and then doing something about it.

Ignoring peoples wishes is a sure way of undermining democracy. The is a lack of interest in democracy now and blatantly ignoring peoples wishes will only make matters worse.

If they dont Trust public to make a decision and dont want to honour it they should have voted against referendum.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Yup.


Honestly? I have no idea. I think a lot feel like they need to placate their constituents. It's even more bizarre in that voting against would make life so much harder for the Tories



Absolutely. They need to fiure out why people are demanding what they are, and address that.

In engineering, when dealing with customer requests, it;s important to get to a root cause and solve the customers actual problem, not the thing they've asked for.

Did they vote Brexit to help fund the NHS or boost local services?
Because of house prices?
Because they feel we spend too much on benefits for foreigners?

It's entirely possible (and indeed likely) that you can solve most of their problems without Brexit (which might not actually solve anything).

17 million people voted for Brexit, MPs should be finding out why and then doing something about it.

You did not answer my question as to why in the face of such a game changing shift in public opinion, Brexit is still happening?

Herzlos

Rinoa wrote: »

The agreement in December, at the request of the UK and agreed by the EU, deliberately left settlement of the border issue until later in negotiations - after we knew what the trade deal would look like.

The agreement was that the UK will propose a solution, otherwise maintain alignment. The implementation of the solution wasn't decided on, but that it'd solved, and that there would be a fallback, was.

Lets's look at what she agreed, in the joint released statement from December:

The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

And in the current draft of the EUs document we have:-

DESIRING to create a common regulatory area on the island of Ireland in order to safeguard North-South cooperation, the all-island economy, and protect the 1998 Agreement;
HAVING REGARD to the devolution arrangements between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland in relation to the common regulatory area;

.....

UNDERLINING that part or all of this Protocol may cease to apply should a future agreement between the Union and the United Kingdom be agreed which addresses the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, including by avoiding a hard border and protecting the 1998 Agreement in all its dimensions;

They are, as far as I can tell, the same thing.

So did she misunderstand what she agreed to in December? Does she not remember it?

As David Davis had pointed out on numerous occasions, settling the border is far easier when you know what tariffs, if any, need to be collected.

I agree with this (and never thought I'd say that). If we have some sort of common market with tariff free trade and free movement, then there's nothing to do.

The EU agreed to all this at the time - and then reneged on it when producing the new draft.

Where in the draft is this reneged on?

Herzlos

ukcarper wrote: »

Ignoring peoples wishes is a sure way of undermining democracy. The is a lack of interest in democracy now and blatantly ignoring peoples wishes will only make matters worse.

I can't tell who you think is undermining democracy here.

Davis himself said that if you can't change your mind, it's not democracy.

Is it democratic to stick to a decision made by a tiny margin, and refuse to discuss any change of opinion?
Or is it democratic to re-assess a decision made previously when there's a chance the answer has changed?

We have elections every 5 years, so allowing for changing minds seems like the latter is the done thing.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

You did not answer my question as to why in the face of such a game changing shift in public opinion, Brexit is still happening?

I'm pretty sure I did, at least twice.

But the answer is simple: Politics.

May is in power with a majority bought off the DUP.

If she cancells Brexit, it'll split the party and end her career.

Theophile

ukcarper wrote: »

Ignoring peoples wishes is a sure way of undermining democracy. The is a lack of interest in democracy now and blatantly ignoring peoples wishes will only make matters worse.

One third of Brits believed the 350 million promise on the infamous bus. It was the centerpiece of the Leave campaign.
The day after the referendum, that promise was discarded.
Did that undermine democracy in any way?

We keep hearing about riots and revolts when brexit gets fudged.
I'd be more worried when the brexiteering underclasses find out they've been sold a dud.

Herzlos

Four_Two wrote: »

Explain please another one what?
Was I supposed to get permission first or is the a creche-like thread I am supposed to stick to?

There's a theme in this thread of users continuing conversations whilst changing username, for whatever reason. New users jumping right in as if they've been here for weeks tend to look like new alias'.

If you are a genuine new user, then welcome. You'll see it's a bit of a mess

(you need to give people more than 8 minutes to reply, not everyone sits on the forum all day changing account names).

Theophile

Four_Two wrote: »

There's a really good post about this and how it's an Irish/EU problem on another thread.

Bu@@er I can't post links so here it is with my thanks to the original contributor.

Basically it is only a problem if people want to make it a problem and it looks like the EU and Ireland are the ones doing that.

If I want to read posts made in Discussion Time, I'll read them there.
But thanks for the heads up.