Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Filo25

I'm kind of confused as to why people think the EU owe us concesssions, they don't anymore than we owe them any.

They have been pretty consistent on what they have requested thus far, nobody is bullying anyone here if we don't find the terms acceptable then a "no deal" Hard Brexit lies ahead, according to some on here that is the best scenario anyway so what exactly is the problem with the EU's approach?

With regards to the Ireland question their current position is in line with that of the sovereign country of Ireland which is a member of the EU (and will be going forwards unlike us) and also has a significant interest in the situation in NI, why shouldn't they reflect Ireland's wishes in their negotiating position, if they weren't then no doubt people would be criticising them for ignoring the wishes of a small member country and using it as proof of what a big undemocratic organisation they were.

We are leaving the EU at our own choice, I find it bizarre that anyone thinks they somehow owe us, an exiting member, a deal which we find fair.

Tromking

Filo25 wrote: »

With regards to the Ireland question their current position is in line with that of the sovereign country of Ireland which is a member of the EU (and will be going forwards unlike us) and also has a significant interest in the situation in NI, why shouldn't they reflect Ireland's wishes in their negotiating position, if they weren't then no doubt people would be criticising them for ignoring the wishes of a small member country and using it as proof of what a big undemocratic organisation they were.

That’ll be ‘sovereign’ Ireland that has abrogated its ability to negotiate on behalf of its people to a Frenchman working for the EU commission?

Filo25

Tromking wrote: »

That’ll be ‘sovereign’ Ireland that has abrogated its ability to negotiate on behalf of its people to a Frenchman working for the EU commission?

Surely its a good thing that the EU are listening to Ireland's interests in this, then.

ukcarper

Filo25 wrote: »

I'm kind of confused as to why people think the EU owe us concesssions, they don't anymore than we owe them any.

They have been pretty consistent on what they have requested thus far, nobody is bullying anyone here if we don't find the terms acceptable then a "no deal" Hard Brexit lies ahead, according to some on here that is the best scenario anyway so what exactly is the problem with the EU's approach?

With regards to the Ireland question their current position is in line with that of the sovereign country of Ireland which is a member of the EU (and will be going forwards unlike us) and also has a significant interest in the situation in NI, why shouldn't they reflect Ireland's wishes in their negotiating position, if they weren't then no doubt people would be criticising them for ignoring the wishes of a small member country and using it as proof of what a big undemocratic organisation they were.

We are leaving the EU at our own choice, I find it bizarre that anyone thinks they somehow owe us, an exiting member, a deal which we find fair.

True but why call it a negotiation if all you are doing is listing demands.

ukcarper

Filo25 wrote: »

Surely its a good thing that the EU are listening to Ireland's interests in this, then.

Is it in Irelands interest to propose something that the UK cannot accept and if we are forced to leave without of a deal will have the worse possible outcome for both parts of Ireland

phillw

ukcarper wrote: »

Is it in Irelands interest to propose something that the UK cannot accept and if we are forced to leave without of a deal will have the worse possible outcome for both parts of Ireland

The worse possible outcome for Ireland would be border control. There are enough people left in Ireland who will seek military action against that.

If Northern Ireland isn't in the customs union, then they have to have border control.

The UK proposition is to just pretend there is a border, but not to implement it so that IRA etc don't get upset. The EU is understandably not prepared to go for that. Especially in light of the UK governments roll in creating the tax havens revealed in the paradise papers.

I do find it annoying that 52% of the country has thrown us under the bus and made it so we have to side with the EU, I just can't bring myself to stand along side the "I'm not racist but" leavers and never will.

Herzlos

ukcarper wrote: »

True but why call it a negotiation if all you are doing is listing demands.

Negotiations don't require both sides to compromise on everything. Sometimes they just don't work.

The EU has given us a list of things it finds acceptable and we've yet to produce a counter offer that they are happy with. I'd say they are making it pretty easy for us by giving us a list of minimum conditions and a choice of options.

It's not the EU's fault that we don't want to agree.

phillw

Herzlos wrote: »

It's not the EU's fault that we don't want to agree.

The negotiations were always going to be pretty tricky, the euro sceptics don't like the EU so they aren't going to give any concessions.

I mean did nobody tell the EU that Britania rules the waves? It's in our national anthem, it should come to no surprise.

ukcarper wrote: »

True but why call it a negotiation if all you are doing is listing demands.

Negotiations always start with a list of demands, you then offer the other person a concession in return for them making a concession. They are negotiating on how much they think the financial liability is and how things will pan out for EU citizens, they appear to have been met with silence because we didn't want to give them anything.

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

Negotiations don't require both sides to compromise on everything. Sometimes they just don't work.

The EU has given us a list of things it finds acceptable and we've yet to produce a counter offer that they are happy with. I'd say they are making it pretty easy for us by giving us a list of minimum conditions and a choice of options.

It's not the EU's fault that we don't want to agree.

If a union went to its employees and said we want a 10% rise and were not prepared to accept less they are not negotiating.

phillw

ukcarper wrote: »

If a union went to its employees and said we want a 10% rise and were not prepared to accept less they are not negotiating.

Why would a union demand a rise from it's employees?

You obviously have no experience of union "talks" with employers.