Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Filo25

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

I suppose we should be grateful it is not corbyn, or rather momentum (lets not pretend he is the one in charge of labour) running the show. He obviously does anything they say, if he had any honour he would have gone when there was a massive vote of no confidence in him.

It would certainly be far worse if it was them in charge.

Would it?

I suspect it would be exactly the same, both parties are struggling with the expectations gap of what the public expects to get out of Brexit and what they are likely to achieve through negotiation.

May tried to close that gap slightly (and let's not get carried away that she closed it all the way) and the howls of betrayal come.

Filo25

kabayiri wrote: »

So is large scale discontent with the political class. All those mainstream incumbents will be blamed; when at the end of a tortuous process there is a failure to deliver hyped up expectations.

The EU won't be able to stop that. It's arguable whether they really care.

This is what happens when people start believing populist headcases promising a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but I'm sure the populist headcases will be back with someone else to blame when it doesn't pan out (I'll give you a clue it will be Remainers and the EU)

Herzlos

Lornapink wrote: »

Remainers 2016 and on;


A trade deal with the EU will take 10 yrs to negotiate
The EU wants nothing from us it cant produce itself, it doesn't care about our market, we're only 4%.
The EU wont want a decent trade deal, they care only about political unity.
At best we'll get a punishment deal, no cherry picking, nothing.


Lots of noises coming out of EU chiefs that the deal will be special, deep and timely.


Remainers must be embarrassed they were so wrong on it all.

That's all still true, apart from the parts you've mis-represented.


The EU deal will take longer than the 2 years to do - we're most of the way through and don't even know what we're asking. Most deals with the EU take about 10 years.


We will get a punishment deal, because that's what we're asking for: a poorer deal than we already have. The EU won't be actively punishing us, they'll just give us what we're asking.


We aren't going to be cherry picking. Off-the-shelf deal or nothing.


The EU wants a good deal with us, but (a) we don't seem to want a good deal with them and (b) they won't risk the EU over it. But they won't have to; we'll cave far earlier than them.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

So is large scale discontent with the political class. All those mainstream incumbents will be blamed; when at the end of a tortuous process there is a failure to deliver hyped up expectations.

The EU won't be able to stop that. It's arguable whether they really care.

Lets be fair; when populists offered the impossible, almost everyone is going to be disappointed anyway, and will still continue to blame the wrong people (EU, Remainers and foreigners, rather than the populists).


There's no way we can get a deal that'll make even half the population happy; it was never an option. Our only hope is to find a deal that doesn't screw us too badly, and doesn't upset too many people. Sadly none of the politicans seems to be talking about just remaining but it's still the only viable option.

Filo25

ilovehouses wrote: »

Seems quite a partisan position since brexiteers have hardly spent the last two years in a state of bliss.

Was having a chuckle about that myself, I am perfectly happy with the status quo oddly enough, its hardcore Leavers who have been banging on about the country going to the dogs for the last decade or so

Now we're in the Brexit process the mutterings of betrayal never seem far away.

cogito

Filo25 wrote: »

This is what happens when people start believing populist headcases promising a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow

Such as Jeremy Corbyn, you mean.

Filo25

cogito wrote: »

Such as Jeremy Corbyn, you mean.

Yes I do as it happens, the right doesn't have a monopoly on populist headcases

phillw

Malthusian wrote: »

Remainers for the past year: "David Davis and Boris Johnson are a disgrace, they should resign"

Davis and Johnson resign

Remainers: "The Government's in shambles"

Literally never happy.

There are plenty of remainers very happy with those two traitors gone, it's just annoying it took so long.

But then your point doesn't need to be based on facts, because as aaron banks says "The piece of advice we got right from the beginning was remember referendum are not about facts, it's about emotion. It doesn't matter how many facts you throw at them"

cogito wrote: »

Such as Jeremy Corbyn, you mean.

No he was referring to the 100% lie based leave campaign. Jeremy Corbyn isn't promising anything other than having different priorities. He's not promising that it would be easy.

Voting leave was pushed as an easy way to negotiate a better deal with the EU, by people who were lying to you for their own gain.

Malthusian wrote: »

and the Remainers would still moan. Probably about all the time and money wasted (even though it was Remain who called the referendum).

Brexit is more about psychology than it is about politics.

Brexit is about lies. I wouldn't moan if it got called off, while Cameron called the referendum he was forced to by loony leavers. It's like blaming the pilot of a hijacked plane, you would have to be delusional. Unfortunately that seems to have been the core leave vote.

Lornapink wrote: »

Lots of noises coming out of EU chiefs that the deal will be special, deep and timely.

Are you misinformed or deliberately lying? Because EU chiefs certainly aren't promising timely. They've asked for timely & we haven't delivered. With the sabre rattling in the conservative party it's looking increasingly likely that there can be no deal.

Lornapink wrote: »

Underpinning your assertion is your notion of a competence hierarchy with us near the bottom.

Given you've thought this through, which European Govt's are at the opposite end to the 'laughing stock' UK?
I predict you wont answer this question.
.

I think you'd have to be pretty unhinged to sit and come up with a league table for the entire EU members competency. But to be a laughing stock you just need to do something monumentally stupid like to vote to leave something which you can't possibly have understood that you rely on for your livelihood.

Zero_Gravitas

Interesting opinion article from the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/07/09/the-intellectual-dishonesty-of-the-brexit-taliban-is-now-in-full-view/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e9098ba8dff3

Coincidentally it’s by Carl Bildt, who was being derided by the brexit fraction on here last night. However, I would suggest having been an actual Prime Minister probably makes him qualified to have an opinion.

I also particularly like the phrase “brexit taliban”, determined to force their ideological brexit on the rest of us and stuff the consequences...

Arklight

Corbyn enjoys the full support of Labour members and 13 million voters (all of whom the Right wing tell us are swivel eyed Trotskyists, hell bent on destroying freedom and nationalising The Sun).

Theresa May enjoys no such support. She doesn't have the support of her cabinet, when it comes to fox hunting, tax cuts for the wealthy, and gay marriage she is right on message with her voters, but she has no idea what they want when it comes to Brexit.

The grass roots are in open rebellion about the possibility of soft Brexit, which puts them at odds with her and the wider electorate, and she needs them to deliver all those leaflets.

The Tory Party is tearing itself apart, again, over it's own xenophobia, again.