ES Parking Enforcment Ltd Ticket face down charge notice

Coupon-mad

I've missed my chance to appeal!

No you haven't.

Have I stuffed things up by not getting the appeal in?

How the heck would it matter? No cases are cancelled, that we ever see, from IPC firms. There is no appeal that actually has any effect, and you'd just sit tight after being rejected anyway - so what?!
Not sure what you were expecting or how it matters.

But what does matter is this, I like this!

The appeal section says the 21 days began 'on the day after that on which the notice is given'. Are they saying that the 21 days started the day after the 1/09 and therefore only giving me as the keeper 8 days to lodge an appeal?

Love that, it gives you another angle. Get a screenshot NOW, today, showing the date on your PC screen, where it says you've gone past the 21 days.

Then use that to make a formal complaint to the IPC about this. NOT saying who the driver was, you are the keeper and you'd 'rather not say' who was driving. COMPLAIN.

The date given is defined in Schedule 4 but you'll know that from when you (should have) read it!

waamo

Have I stuffed things up by not getting the appeal in?

I think you missed this earlier in this thread

First accept that appeals are futile to IAS companies as set out in the newbies FAQ

meagainin

Oh I fully expected the appeal to be declined, sorry I didn't make that clear.
I was just bothered that it would go against me when this goes to court.
I've been doing a fair bit of reading over the last couple of weeks and will go back and read through schedule 4 again as it obviously hasn't sunk in.

claxtome

I am dealing with this the same PPC => Private Parking Company as you for the same problem:
'flipped ticket' or 'fluttering ticket'.

My first advice is to guard your ticket you displayed on the day with your life.
You will need that if/when they take you to court.
My second advice don't tell the PPC who the driver was so you can appeal as a Keeper.
(It gives you more options /arguments if it goes to court).
Be very careful how you word your appeals with this in mind.

My personal opinion - other people would say not to appeal - I think it shows you are trying to follow their appeal process which you can say to the judge->
I would appeal to PPC by post, include a copy of the ticket (not actual ticket), then when you get rejection (sorry you will) then ignore all letters until 1 specific one falls on your doorstep which is labelled "Letter Before Country Court Claim" or referred to on here as LBC or LBCCC. My thread below has a dropbox link with all the things I have received/sent to do with my case and includes the LBC I received.

Note: The appeal rejection to PPC will mention appealing further to IAS. (Search in google for IPC "International Parking Community and the website you find will show 'ES Parking Enforcement Ltd' as a member of IPC. "Independent Appeals Sevice" IAS is the appeal service for IPC)
My advice is to not appeal to IAS as this will be 99% futile - forum says the same.
You will probably get a further appeal rejection, waste your time and effort which gives them an upper hand if/when it goes to court.

If you want help about what to put in your appeal to PPC look at the Sticky under Appeals for IPC affiliated firms - should be a standard letter. Which I would be tempted to send as is but feel free to ask forum if you want to add specifics for your case.
(My thread includes what I sent to PPC on appeal but in my case got ignored)

My current thread 'flipped ticket' below shows that the same PPC is taking me to court for the same problem as you 'flipped ticket' or 'fluttering ticket'. I have just submitted my defence and if/when your gets to LBC I can help you more as well as others on here.
Link to my thread is below:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5715702

I am not a big fan of ESPEL (ES Parking Enforcement Ltd) as I am now fighting 2 cases at court for them so happy to help others. The members of this forum have helped me so much with my three parking cases and I want to give something back by helping others; particularly ES Parking cases.

I hope this helps.
Remember you are not alone, try and relax and not worry.
Also you won't get a CCJ unless you lose at court AND don't pay the bill when asked to.

claxtome

Nope the letter definitely says they're part of BPA.

That sounds strange - they shouldn't be showing that on a letter as they are not part of BPA.

Oh I fully expected the appeal to be declined, sorry I didn't make that clear.
I was just bothered that it would go against me when this goes to court.

I think it is the opposite and not count against you at court as it shows you are trying to be reasonable and follow pre-court process if it goes that far as I expect it will.
(That is appealing to ESPEL your PPC)

If you go further, not recommended by forum, and use the IAS Appeal service and get a rejection I think it would count against you but not much (read about Gladstones and IAS in google and see that there maybe some correlation in staff ;-) )

I would also second what Coupon-mad said about taking screenshots as it has not passed the 21 days deadline for appealing.

meagainin

I've received my letter before claim from Gladstones and I'll be sending this as a reply. Any feedback would be appreciated.


Gladstones Solicitors
The Terrace
High Legh Golf Club
Warrington Road
Knutsford
WA16 6AA

3 December 2017



Dear Sirs,

Ref ****************

I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 9 November 2017.!

I am the keeper of vehicle ******** and I deny any debt to ES Parking Enforcement Ltd.
The driver is not identified in your letter and your client has failed to meet the requirements of The Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue me as the keeper.

You should be aware that a valid pay and display ticket was paid for and was placed on the window screen at the time that the vehicle was left.

Please review case C8GF30W7 Link Parking v Mr H (14/11/2016 Port Talbot)
which a claim was dismissed due to a ticket that had turned upside down. The judge dismissed the claim and ruled that it was the responsibility of the parking company to provide sticky backed tickets and that he had already thrown out 6 -10 of these type of case

As the keeper, I received your client's parking charge notice to keeper (in relation to parking on 01/09/2017, notice produced on 11/09/2017) on 15/09/2017. I endeavoured to request that your client dismiss this charge via their website, however, although I tried several times over the course of a few days, your client's website would not allow me to upload proof of the valid ticket even after reducing the photograph size more than once.

I tried again on 02/10/2017 only to find that your client's website would no longer accept my request as it stated that I had exceeded the 21 day appeal period. This is in contravention of Schedule 4 in the IPC code of practice, which your client should adhere to and therefore your client has denied me the right to appeal this charge.

Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.!

Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents/information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

As solicitors, you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors is sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.!

I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. an explanation of the cause of action!
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.!
6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 “establishing yourself as the creditor”
8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form


If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) – Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.!

Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


Yours faithfully

happybagger

You might want to change the third word of para 5

claxtome

The letter looks very professional which I have no specific comment.

Suggest you look at a similar thread for same PPC as your case and was post Oct 1st rules also in case it can help ->
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5484250#9

My thread, linked previously, is at WS stage and don't think will help you at your current stage.

meagainin

Thanks! 🙂
Amended now, can't believe I put that!

meagainin

Thanks, Claxtome, I borrowed a bit from your response so it's me that should be thanking you
The rest came from the newbies faq.

I need to get this submitted before 9/12, is there anything else I should add?

When I was trying to upload my appeal, there were other photos shown (which I stupidly didn't get a screenshot of) which showed a number of tickets in the window, one was flipped but when I checked the number on it, it wasn't the ticket from the 1/9.
It looks like the ticket for 1/9 did actually fall off the dashboard and wasn't just face down. I'm wondering if the fact that the other tickets were on the dash but this one wasn't will be an issue when it goes to court?