Brexit, the economy and house prices (Part 3)

TrickyTree83

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Not sure where i moved the goalposts, id still be interested in an example of what sort of law you think this situation could apply to, but for now:

Voice at the ballot box is MEPs and when you elect your national government they choose the commissioner. If for example Corbyn was PM, you would expect his commissioner would focus on social issues, would be a more left wing voice in the commission etc. so by proxy the 'winning' side of the electorate is represented by the commissioner in the same way as their chosen government. The electorate chooses the commissioner by whatever party they elect to government.

Im not sure what power the government has to direct their commissioner, as theyre a representative not a delegate, but they do have the power to appoint and recall. National governments can also lobby, discuss with other national leaders in the Council etc. So there are ways to get things on to the agenda.

As for the issue that we could end up being ignored, well yes, but thats the case in politics anywhere and everywhere. That's where negotiation and diplomacy come in to play - do you know what guarantees we definitely get ignored by the other 27 commissions? Brexit and losing our commissioner. Even out of the EU we will still be affected by what the commission does, we'll just have less of a voice than now

Nowhere does that show that your vote at the ballot box can effect change at the EU level.

The 2015 general election demonstrably showed that where Dave and likely our commissioner were looking for concessions from the other 27 members. We didn't get everything we wanted so the only option left was to remove ourselves from the jurisdiction of the EU.

You're missing the point it seems, on purpose maybe? Your vote for an MEP cannot make them listen to the EU parliament can it?

Your vote for a political party in the UK can not influence the decision of who the commissioner will be for that party or what will be proposed at the EU level can it?

And once at that level your vote has no bearing on discussions taking place within the commission on what legislation is to be proposed, does it?

That's the long and short of it. There's no waffle in between about comparisons and similarity of expectations. Your vote means nothing more on the EU stage than a proposal, a mere suggestion.

TrickyTree83

BobQ wrote: »

I find it a very British form of arrogance to imply the EU is undemocratic. The fact is that the EU system is different to that of the UK. Gone are the days when the British imposed their views on what is democratic on the people of other nations

The fact is that the EU system of Government is a compromise broadly agreed by the original 6 but evolved to accommodate the new members. Germany's system of Government is different to ours as it the French, Spanish and Danish systems. All could make the same claim that the EU is undemocratic because its not like their own. Butits something supremely arrogant and British to moan about a system that was collectively agreed by the EU28.

Soon we will not have this to moan about and we can focus on justifying our democratic system in which:

- the electors of about 500 constituencies have no influence on the outcome,
- power mostly rests in the hands of the leadership of a party that rarely has majority support of the electorate,,
- executive power rests in the hands a collection of appointed MPs chosen for their ability to suck up to the party leader and elected by about 5% of the electorate supported by unelected civil servants who even now are mostly privately educated and Oxbridge graduates.
- decisions are made on our laws by an unelected chamber of people most of whom are either failed politicians or chosen for their political donations or services.

No system is perfect but it is sheer arrogance to say the EU system is flawed compared with ours. We are simply in no position to lecture others.

Show me a system of government in Europe other than the EU that can bind parliaments that come after it.

That's all I need to say in response Bob, because that's the problem when you vote for an MEP.

Your EU vote means nothing more than the ability for someone to effectively say "please don't do that, it'll be bad for us" on your behalf, no vote you make will result directly in change based on a manifesto written by someone standing in the UK. But a vote in a UK general election delivers the change you want provided the party you vote for wins and they stick to their manifesto.

Your understanding of the HoL appears to have gaps in it too. Plus you're arguing about the composition of our system being bad does not make the EU system seem like it works, it doesn't. Say in 1997 you voted Labour, you got increased funding to the NHS and education as promised. Say you voted for the Conservatives in 2015, you got a referendum on EU membership as promised. Tell me.... which MEP can deliver on any promises such as these? Those that require legislation. None of them can, no groups of MEP's can. Only if the commission thinks it's a good idea would they take the recommendation under advisement. The MEP's may get a say in altering the legislation after it is proposed but they can not propose it themselves.

It's cut and dry, your vote in the UK in relation to the EU means nothing but to advise and recommend to the commission. Find it British arrogance if you want, I believe you'll find the rest of the world call it the truth.

gfplux

AFF8879 wrote: »

No banks are "moving their headquarters". They are just bulking up their presence in the continent and altering their legal entity structure. I should know as I work for a London based US bank. Any mass exodus you hear of in the Guardian is just fantasy (on a side note it's funny how Labour and Corbyn are now so desperate to keep the banks and all their tax revenue after years of demonising them).

HSBC have the most aggressive "exodus" plan out of any of the major banks as far as I'm aware, and they only plan on moving 1,000 jobs. Out of 43,000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/hsbc-ceo-confirms-possible-hard-brexit-plan-to-move-1000-jobs-to-paris.html

These sort of posts are worth gold as they are actually from the coal face rather than my and others speculation.
Thank you AFF.
This "bulking up their presence" are those plans the same as six months ago. Have you noticed any changes in the contingency plans as the slanging match that is the negotiations has increased.
If there is no change I commend their nerve but wonder at their judgement. Do they have inside information.

Herzlos

Successive parliaments are no more bound under the EU than at Westminster. Unless you're implying that no one can suggest or amend laws at any point?

Do you have an example of when this bound parliament happened or caused a problem?

As I understand it, the UK parliament can still do stuff that can't be undone, like Brexit, or because of punitive contracts.

Plus, of this was a real issue with the EU, why aren't we using our influence to change it rather than taking our ball home?

To be fair, my vote at the ballot box has no impact at a UK level either, with this 2 party, first past post system.

Tromking

gfplux wrote: »

These sort of posts are worth gold as they are actually from the coal face rather than my and others speculation.
Thank you AFF.
This "bulking up their presence" are those plans the same as six months ago. Have you noticed any changes in the contingency plans as the slanging match that is the negotiations has increased.
If there is no change I commend their nerve but wonder at their judgement. Do they have inside information.

Give it up mate, you're beginning to sound desperate.

fewgroats

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Astonishing hogwash.

We're leaving, an act of parliament (i.e. law) enacted article 50 of the treaty of Lisbon.

Article 50 will have to be changed. March 2019 isn't enough time.

Tiners

Joeskeppi wrote: »

Why put the decision in the hands of morons who don't know what the EU is? I hate this obsession with referendums.

Now that's uncalled for, yes the majority of pro EU, pro unlimited immigration, liberals may well be nothing more than gullible ''useful idiots'' ... but to label all of them as morons is a bit harsh.

System

In any negotiations you attempt to get the best deal you can. If at that point someone interupts the negotiations, or your electorate suddenly reject the deal you have negotiated, then the consequence is that you end up with no deal or a worse deal.
Why does anyone imagine that "disrupting the Brexit process" is miraculously going to produce a better deal?

Thinking that just saying "I don't like it" will suddenly get your way is just childish, like throwing your toys out of the pram because mummy wouldn't buy you an icecream.

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

Successive parliaments are no more bound under the EU than at Westminster. Unless you're implying that no one can suggest or amend laws at any point?

Do you have an example of when this bound parliament happened or caused a problem?

As I understand it, the UK parliament can still do stuff that can't be undone, like Brexit, or because of punitive contracts.

Plus, of this was a real issue with the EU, why aren't we using our influence to change it rather than taking our ball home?

To be fair, my vote at the ballot box has no impact at a UK level either, with this 2 party, first past post system.

Are you serious?

Brexit can be undone by another act of parliament to cease article 50 if the EU agrees or by applying to re-join. This can be done in this parliament or the next ad infinitum.

In the EU the parliament cannot table and vote on legislation themselves. You must know this?

Edit: come on, what did you base your vote on if you didn't know about things like this?

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/08/20/european-parliament-able-propose-legislation/#.Wau4BHPTXqA

always_sunny

Arklight wrote: »

So the UK now has no say in what happens in her own back yard. And no say in her back yard's back yard.

And according to Brexit people that it some kind of win.

Why would it? 572 days and it's out and the UK will have no say, even the say now it's like 'yeah whatever'.
It's not the UK back yard, it's the European Union.