PCN for breastfeeding - Appeal lost with Premier Parking

nosferatu1001

Upload it, suitably redacted, to a hosting site.

Anything they HAVENT commented upon from your appeal you must TELL POPLA that they havent covered it - so for example if there isnt a landowner contract and you said there has to be one, well tell POPLA.

Anything you do not "rebut" you are deemed to accept, so disagree with anything untrue or misleading. Check pics of signs are actually of the site, and relevant to the material date. If thyeve only supplied PLANS of signs, well that isnt indiccative of actual layouts of signs - you need the detailed MAP for that.

Fruitcake

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

Upload it, suitably redacted, to a hosting site.

Anything they HAVENT commented upon from your appeal you must TELL POPLA that they havent covered it - so for example if there isnt a landowner contract and you said there has to be one, well tell POPLA.

Anything you do not "rebut" you are deemed to accept, so disagree with anything untrue or misleading. Check pics of signs are actually of the site, and relevant to the material date. If thyeve only supplied PLANS of signs, well that isnt indiccative of actual layouts of signs - you need the detailed MAP for that.

Precisely so.

Compare your appeal line by line with their 35 pages of bumf and pick out any omissions and any inaccuracies/untruths, and point out each and every one out to PoPLA.
Where they have not responded to one of your points, you highlight this to the assessor as it means you are right and they have admitted it by omission.

damargil

They covered the 3 grounds that we used for our appeal.

1-Mitigating circumstances - We overstayed due to breastfeeding, when we appealed to them, the overstay was 24min, now it has gone down to 7min after grace periods that they have decided have to be 5min for accessing and 10 for leaving. They also quote the following:

"As per POPLA FAQ’s

If you have appealed to POPLA on the grounds of mitigating circumstances (a reason beyond your control that prevented you from fulfilling the Terms and Conditions of the parking contract), it is less likely that your appeal will be successful.
This is because POPLA is not able to allow an appeal for mitigating circumstances. In the event that the assessor finds a mitigating circumstance to be the reason for the parking charge being issued, the assessor can request the parking operator to consider this, but cannot enforce it."

Not much we can do there, I think.

2-Signage and ANPR - We stated that there was no signage at the entrance and also all the bits and pieces that we could find in the forum regarding signs and usage of the ANPR. They have replied with text and a whole lot of images showing the sings.

I have been reviewing the images and they seem to be saying that the barrier is located in a different place to where we think it is and where Google earth and the ANPR pics show. Here is where we believe we can do something.

We have also been in touch with the council to enquire about the planning and advertising consent for wall and pole mounted signs, and pole mounted ANPR. They have replied that the car park does have planning permission but they are not certain about the inclusion of the signs and ANPR and they are looking into it.

3-Landowner authority - We also used this ground of appeal and they have provided the contract, which expired in Feb 2017, our PCN was issued in July 2017, BUT there is a 12 month rolling clause should both parties wish to continue. We will ask for that wish in writing but again I don't think we have much to comment on about this one.

We also made remarks about the parking charge notice being unreasonable and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and they have replied referring us to the Supreme Court decision dated 4th November 2015, Parking Eye Ltd-v-Mr Barry Beavis. Details on the case be found at https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html.

We need to look into this but I am guessing that if there is a case that set up a precedent, we might have nothing to do.


By the way, we have contacted POPLA asking if we can submit our comments on the post to avoid using the 2000 character box, I don't want to make the same mistake....., and they have not replied yet. Does anybody know if we can send it by post? and if so, can we post it on the last day, i.e. seventh day from the date we were told?

Thanks...!!!

Coupon-mad

We also made remarks about the parking charge notice being unreasonable and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

You should not have done. It detracts from your argument due to the well-known Beavis case.

We need to look into this

No, you don't, been there done that, we lived/breathed it. Never argue ''no loss'' re a parking charge.

You can't post your comments. Email them.

And you only get SIX days in fact then POPLA make the decision...so no delaying this. No snail mail.

3-Landowner authority - We also used this ground of appeal and they have provided the contract, which expired in Feb 2017, our PCN was issued in July 2017, BUT there is a 12 month rolling clause should both parties wish to continue. We will ask for that wish in writing but again I don't think we have much to comment on about this one.

Looks like you can - just don't point out the rolling contract sentence!

Point out it appears to have expired in February 2017 and there is no evidence of an extension and no schedule attached showing the details of restrictions and definitions, exclusions, times of operation, contraventions, etc. and the signatory has not been evidenced to be someone who had authority to act for the landowner themselves.*



* I am guessing with some of that...you will have to look...have they redacted details and/or names? Is it signed by the actual landowner, or just a property agent with no title in the land? etc.

nosferatu1001

Breastfeeding isnt a "mitigating" circumstance. It is a protected characteristic (C-M is better than me at this! ) and so they MUST make reasonable adjustments

They cannot aribitrarily decide it is 5 minutes to enter either. The BPA CoP leaves that part undefined HOWEVER you state that entering, finding a space, parking, finding signs and reading and deciding whether or not toi accept the conditions MUST take longer than leaving - finding the car and driving away - and the BPA CoP MANDATES at LEAST 10 minutes grace for leaving. meaning it isnt a 7 (surely you mean 9? 24-10-5 = 9) overstay at all, but more like 0 minutes.

Loadsofchildren123

Just belatedly offering my views about the poker debate.


People threaten legal action all the time, with the reality being that they will not actually proceed - some because they don't want to, others because they don't have a good claim and are trying it on. This isn't immoral or wrong, it's part of the "game" (I'm sorry I know you don't like these analogies).


In your case, you aren't trying to screw them for money, you are trying to get an unfair charge cancelled. So whilst you may have a problem with the EA issue because your son is more than 6 months old, you can still write a LBC to the landowner and the PPC, and threaten legal action, but just not let on his precise age at the time of the parking event.


One person (like you) may say they don't want to do this because it's playing games, another would say it's a good way to try to get this charge cancelled. This is nothing that the PPC isn't doing to you, threatening action that it might never take! And landowners who take on parking companies need to learn that they are responsible for the actions of their agents.


So in short, don't view it as game playing but as a genuine tactic for trying to get this charge cancelled.


You asked in a much earlier post about how to find the Act - google it and you will get a link to a government website showing the full text of the Act. It will be a www.legislation.gov.uk address linking you direct to the Act. If you google it with "breastfeeding" you'll probably find all sorts of interesting articles by lawyers with advice on how the Act is interpreted.

damargil

You should not have done. It detracts from your argument due to the well-known Beavis case.


No, you don't, been there done that, we lived/breathed it. Never argue ''no loss'' re a parking charge.

You can't post your comments. Email them.

And you only get SIX days in fact then POPLA make the decision...so no delaying this. No snail mail.

Thanks for that C-m.

Looks like you can - just don't point out the rolling contract sentence!

Point out it appears to have expired in February 2017 and there is no evidence of an extension and no schedule attached showing the details of restrictions and definitions, exclusions, times of operation, contraventions, etc. and the signatory has not been evidenced to be someone who had authority to act for the landowner themselves.*



* I am guessing with some of that...you will have to look...have they redacted details and/or names? Is it signed by the actual landowner, or just a property agent with no title in the land? etc.

I have been looking to their pdf and the contract section and I just found the following.

"We can confirm that neither, 'Establishment A' nor 'Parking Operator Company' have applied the notice provisions, and therefore the agreement remains in place.

Consequently, we would expect POPLA to be satisfied that Premier Park have sufficient authority to issue Parking Charges on the land, on the day of the contravention"

This means they have extended the contract, doesn't it?

damargil

Loadsofchildren123 wrote: »

Just belatedly offering my views about the poker debate.


People threaten legal action all the time, with the reality being that they will not actually proceed - some because they don't want to, others because they don't have a good claim and are trying it on. This isn't immoral or wrong, it's part of the "game" (I'm sorry I know you don't like these analogies).


In your case, you aren't trying to screw them for money, you are trying to get an unfair charge cancelled. So whilst you may have a problem with the EA issue because your son is more than 6 months old, you can still write a LBC to the landowner and the PPC, and threaten legal action, but just not let on his precise age at the time of the parking event.


One person (like you) may say they don't want to do this because it's playing games, another would say it's a good way to try to get this charge cancelled. This is nothing that the PPC isn't doing to you, threatening action that it might never take! And landowners who take on parking companies need to learn that they are responsible for the actions of their agents.


So in short, don't view it as game playing but as a genuine tactic for trying to get this charge cancelled.


You asked in a much earlier post about how to find the Act - google it and you will get a link to a government website showing the full text of the Act. It will be a www.legislation.gov.uk address linking you direct to the Act. If you google it with "breastfeeding" you'll probably find all sorts of interesting articles by lawyers with advice on how the Act is interpreted.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I just don't like bluffing or threatening in general and even more when it comes to matters like this.

Maybe I took it a bit too seriously but I didn't offend anybody, unlike this person who call me 'madam' knowing that I don't belong to that admirable gender, and had to delete his post afterwards.

In any case, I would rather focusing my attention on things that are more relevant to us like getting rid of this PCN, I have already done a couple of clumsy things so far and I would like to avoid making more mistakes.

nosferatu1001

""We can confirm that neither, 'Establishment A' nor 'Parking Operator Company' have applied the notice provisions, and therefore the agreement remains in place."

Thats them saying that the landowner hasnt cancelled. Well , they would say that wouldnt they? its as persuasive as a witness statement from them would be - and this isnt even a witness statement, it isnt signed under a statement of truth

Loadsofchildren123

I would rather focusing my attention on things that are more relevant to us like getting rid of this PCN
I honestly think pressing the landowner and making them take this seriously is one of your best chances of getting rid of it! Don't let the opportunity pass you by.