Land Registry questions

Mickey666

Thank you.    Just to clarify so I'm absolutely clear . . .
1.  there IS a financial charge on the property and the "notice of deposit" is LR's way of recording that fact, but they have no actual information about the details of that charge
2. The charge document will be some form of separate contract between the borrower and lender, both of whom should have copies.

A few more questions if I may.
1. if the person in possession of the property for the past 30-ish years were to apply for adverse possession, would it be possible to grant title without the charge being discharged?  ie could the applicant gain the title with the charge still in place?
2. if the charge document is not produced by either the borrower or lender during an AP application, would LR remove the charge from the title, and if so how long would the borrower/lender have to produce said document?
3. is there any time limit for a charge?  or is there any circumstance where a charge can be removed due to the apparent disinterest of the lender to collect it (background, no loan repayments have been made for over 30 years and the lender has made no effort during that time to repossess the property in order to recover its loan.  After 30+ years, it appears that the lender has 'given up' on this loan so is there any LR mechanism for having the charge cancelled?).
Thank you.

Land_Registry

Mickey666 said:

Thank you.    Just to clarify so I'm absolutely clear . . .
1.  there IS a financial charge on the property and the "notice of deposit" is LR's way of recording that fact, but they have no actual information about the details of that charge
2. The charge document will be some form of separate contract between the borrower and lender, both of whom should have copies.

A few more questions if I may.
1. if the person in possession of the property for the past 30-ish years were to apply for adverse possession, would it be possible to grant title without the charge being discharged?  ie could the applicant gain the title with the charge still in place?
2. if the charge document is not produced by either the borrower or lender during an AP application, would LR remove the charge from the title, and if so how long would the borrower/lender have to produce said document?
3. is there any time limit for a charge?  or is there any circumstance where a charge can be removed due to the apparent disinterest of the lender to collect it (background, no loan repayments have been made for over 30 years and the lender has made no effort during that time to repossess the property in order to recover its loan.  After 30+ years, it appears that the lender has 'given up' on this loan so is there any LR mechanism for having the charge cancelled?).
Thank you.

Yes - back in the day the deeds (land certificate) were deposited with the lender hence the terminology used. Land certificates were withdrawn 20 years ago but the charge still exists 
That’s the key here so there was a charge and the lender protected it by way of a notice of deposit 
It doesn’t cease to exist over time even if disinterest exists. And to remove it you need evidence from the lender to discharge it in the same way as you would if it were a legal charge. 

Clearly you have wider issues involved here and there’s no point trying to speculate around hypothetical situations. Simple fact is the charge exists and to lose or get rid of it you need the lender to get involved. And if you tried to claim the registered title we would need to contact the lender to seek their consent. 

I think you’ve also contacted us via one of our blogs as well so you may be getting an overload of advice. 

RJ1129

We are purchasing a property with part of the house and drive that has been built on land registered to someone else.  The registered owner of the land has agreed that this is a boundary error and he has signed a TP1 over the our vendors.  Their solicitor has asked if we need this to be registered with the Land Registry before we complete.  What we would like to know is it possible for us to purchase the house with the whole plot and registry this with the LR after.  Our solicitor want this to be registered/approved by the LR first and we are not sure how long this will take.

Mickey666

Thank you again.
I've not been on your LR blogs, so that's probably the person more directly involved.  They've asked a number of people for advice and I said I'd do what I could to investigate.  I think I've taken it as far as I can and my advice is going to be that they need some formal legal advice if they want to pursue an AP application, because I know that will result in the lender being contacted.  From what I understand, it doesn't seem likely that the existing title holder is suddenly going to appear after 30+ years so it's going to be between the existing possessor and the lender, assuming they can find their records.   I suspect the existing possessor will simply continue to rent out the property for as long as they can. 

Just one last question out of interest rather than any practical help.  The existing leasehold has 91 years to run.  Assuming things remain unchanged and the property remains rented out by the current possessor there would seem little point in the possessor trying to extend the lease (even if that would be possible).  So eventually the lease will expire.
Presumably at that point, the charge must also expire?

At that point, presumably the freeholder would then be able to create a new leasehold for the property, completely without charge?

Land_Registry

RJ1129 said:

We are purchasing a property with part of the house and drive that has been built on land registered to someone else.  The registered owner of the land has agreed that this is a boundary error and he has signed a TP1 over the our vendors.  Their solicitor has asked if we need this to be registered with the Land Registry before we complete.  What we would like to know is it possible for us to purchase the house with the whole plot and registry this with the LR after.  Our solicitor want this to be registered/approved by the LR first and we are not sure how long this will take.

Either way round is possible but it’s your solicitor you must rely on, and more importantly, any mortgage lender may say it has to be sorted first. 

The solicitor will understand how long it will take. They will also know how to request expedition if there’s an urgency. 

I’d suggest asking them if it’s your choice or not, what the risks are and if you decide it needs to be sorted first make sure they get it expedited to reduce the initial wait time and get it considered ASAP  

Land_Registry

Mickey666 said:

Thank you again.
I've not been on your LR blogs, so that's probably the person more directly involved.  They've asked a number of people for advice and I said I'd do what I could to investigate.  I think I've taken it as far as I can and my advice is going to be that they need some formal legal advice if they want to pursue an AP application, because I know that will result in the lender being contacted.  From what I understand, it doesn't seem likely that the existing title holder is suddenly going to appear after 30+ years so it's going to be between the existing possessor and the lender, assuming they can find their records.   I suspect the existing possessor will simply continue to rent out the property for as long as they can. 

Just one last question out of interest rather than any practical help.  The existing leasehold has 91 years to run.  Assuming things remain unchanged and the property remains rented out by the current possessor there would seem little point in the possessor trying to extend the lease (even if that would be possible).  So eventually the lease will expire.
Presumably at that point, the charge must also expire?

At that point, presumably the freeholder would then be able to create a new leasehold for the property, completely without charge?

A lease doesn’t just expire as the law can protect a leaseholder in many ways re extending or getting a new lease or acquiring the freehold even. Something else to add to the legal advice list I’d suggest as this is clearly a complicated scenario 

Vasquez65

With form TR1,   If there are two executors for an estate,  do both need to sign the form when a property is sold?   

Land_Registry

Vasquez65 said:

With form TR1,   If there are two executors for an estate,  do both need to sign the form when a property is sold?   

Yes if both are named as personal representatives in the probate

Mickey666

Land_Registry said:

Mickey666 said:

Thank you again.
I've not been on your LR blogs, so that's probably the person more directly involved.  They've asked a number of people for advice and I said I'd do what I could to investigate.  I think I've taken it as far as I can and my advice is going to be that they need some formal legal advice if they want to pursue an AP application, because I know that will result in the lender being contacted.  From what I understand, it doesn't seem likely that the existing title holder is suddenly going to appear after 30+ years so it's going to be between the existing possessor and the lender, assuming they can find their records.   I suspect the existing possessor will simply continue to rent out the property for as long as they can. 

Just one last question out of interest rather than any practical help.  The existing leasehold has 91 years to run.  Assuming things remain unchanged and the property remains rented out by the current possessor there would seem little point in the possessor trying to extend the lease (even if that would be possible).  So eventually the lease will expire.
Presumably at that point, the charge must also expire?

At that point, presumably the freeholder would then be able to create a new leasehold for the property, completely without charge?

A lease doesn’t just expire as the law can protect a leaseholder in many ways re extending or getting a new lease or acquiring the freehold even. Something else to add to the legal advice list I’d suggest as this is clearly a complicated scenario 

That's interesting.  I've read a little about leaseholders having legal rights to extend a leasehold term, albeit for a price (which is fair enough) and I can imagine why a lease would not normally get anywhere near expiring.  But if the actual leaseholder cannot be traced they are unlikely to want to extend the lease - especially if it will cost them money.  Similarly, the current possessor of the property probably doesn't want to spend money on extending a lease they don't have title to and (I'm guessing) they probably couldn't even if they wanted to.  So, in this rather odd situation, I can imagine that the lease might well rund down to its term - albeit not in our lifetime!  As you rightly say, it's a complicated scenario and I'll add that to the list!

Thanks again.

Ethelbert20

Hi, My mum has owned the house she lives in for nearly 60 years and it's not registered. We would like to register it so we can get any alerts on the property. Can we do this ourselves, or is it best to get a conveyancer to do it.
If we can do it ourselves, do we need to send the original deeds, or will copies be ok?