The illogical proof of address system: is it really required by law?

eskbanker

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Surely requiring photo ids is a safer and harder to defraud system?

If anything, what you have just said proves my point that the continental European system of cheap ID cards and a population register makes sense. Like I said, I have always wondered how you can prove identity and citizenship without a driving licence or a passport, neither of which are compulsory.

Oh, BTW, it's not only challenger banks that require photo ids.

Nobody is denying the value of photo ID - in general institutions will require both, i.e. photo ID and proof of address, it's not either/or. Typically there will be two lists of verification documents, from which applicants must supply one of each - one with a photo and one with a current address, with the stipulation that the same document can't be used to satisfy both requirements.

SouthLondonUser

@eskbanker, yes, but, back to my point about how on Earth one prove his identity in the absence of cheap/free and compulsory ID cards, what photo ID can someone who doesn't have a passport nor a driving licence show?
For example, from First Direct's website (page 4 of this PDF):
https://www1.firstdirect.com/1/PA_esf-ca-app-content/content/content_static/pdf/security_procedures_and_FAQs.pdf
they require passport, driving licence, identity card (for EU citizens) or Northern Ireland voter's card.

I have no idea what a Norther Ireland voter's card is, but, ignoring Northern Ireland for a moment, you'll notice that First Direct requires documents which are, in theory, not compulsory for a British citizen and resident! So, what is a British citizen and resident, without passport nor driving licence, to do?

d123

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

The Italians probably do, but the Italian ID card is a joke (a picture glued with some spit to a piece of paper) and all too easy to fake.

Your description doesn’t seem to match reality...




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_electronic_identity_card


Unfortunately your hyperbole throws your entire post into question...

benjus

d123 wrote: »

Your description doesn’t seem to match reality...




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_electronic_identity_card


Unfortunately your hyperbole throws your entire post into question...

I have not met any Italians who actually have these electronic ID cards. I have, however, met several who have the old photo-glued-to-a-bit-of-paper cards. Unless things have changed recently the electronic ID cards are only available in a few towns in Italy. Even if they are now available to everyone, the old paper cards are still valid and I think it will take quite a while to get everybody switched to the new ones.

SouthLondonUser

@d123, please refrain from commenting on topics you are not familiar with - doing so makes you look silly. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. If you did, you'd know that Italian ID cards have been "on beta trial" for more than a decade; however, the truth of the matter is that only a tiny and irrelevant fraction of the population has electronic id cards. The vast majority of the population does not. I have seen some Italian ID cards with a plastic-like protective film covering the photo, and others where the photo was literally glued, and could have been very easily replaced with another one.

You have also clearly not read the page you linked, because it says:

After more than 10 years of trials, the use of the electronic card was, as of 2011, still limited to relatively few municipalities,

A quick google search also points me to this recent article in the Italian press, on how obtaining the new electronic id card is still a very cumbersome process, which explains why so few Italians have it.
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmilano.repubblica.it%2Fcronaca%2F2017%2F04%2F07%2Fnews%2Fmilano_anagrafe-162364996%2F&edit-text=

eskbanker

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

@eskbanker, yes, but, back to my point about how on Earth one prove his identity in the absence of cheap/free and compulsory ID cards, what photo ID can someone who doesn't have a passport nor a driving licence show?
For example, from First Direct's website (page 4 of this PDF):
https://www1.firstdirect.com/1/PA_esf-ca-app-content/content/content_static/pdf/security_procedures_and_FAQs.pdf
they require passport, driving licence, identity card (for EU citizens) or Northern Ireland voter's card.

I have no idea what a Norther Ireland voter's card is, but, ignoring Northern Ireland for a moment, you'll notice that First Direct requires documents which are, in theory, not compulsory for a British citizen and resident! So, what is a British citizen and resident, without passport nor driving licence, to do?

One of the following:

1. Negotiate with First Direct to see if any alternatives are acceptable (don't expect them to accept a home-produced video!)
2. Get hold of a passport or driving licence
3. Try to find a different financial institution with lesser verification requirements (and who offers a decent product range....)
4. Accept that access to financial products and services (as well as travel by air or car) is likely to be severely compromised by not having acceptable ID

forgotmyname

Try opening an account (well switching) to First Direct.

Slight discrepency with the wifes surname on the electoral roll and she had to jump through many hoops. Most of which failed.
They even suggested online video etc. But that failed.

We were switching a joint account and they sent letters saying the transfer was on hold, yet a day or so later another letter arrived saying cards will arrive soon. Still trying to sort ID verification out, they said the account was not open letter was wrong.

Then the cards arrived in both of our names, then online banking details arrived. For an account thats on hold?

Then whatever you do dont make a typo when loggin in. It makes you create a new security question. I only slipped with a key and pressed enter too quickly. At least give me one more chance...

And trying to get phone banking setup for someone that doesnt speak well on the phone, and doesnt know which password is which because they give them different names.

3rd and 4th letter of the digital password, err is the digital one the main one i use to login or the security password i created? sorry we need to terminate the call.

SouthLondonUser

@eskbanker, that's pretty much what I thought. Not a huge deal for me, who have a passport and driving licence, but I think you have just proved my points that:

1) only technically are passports and driving licences not required; de facto they are, or, at the very least, having at least one makes your life much much much easier. So the point on the UK not requiring any form of ID is practically rather moot;
2) having a cheap or free system of compulsory ID cards would benefit those who do not have and cannot afford a passport or driving licence.

SouthLondonUser

@forgotmyname, very sorry to hear that. Your case is a perfect example of a system which causes lots of pain to honest individuals but does not deter criminals (again, faking a proof of address is not particularly hard with a PC).

batrachophagus

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

I am currently going through a bit of "proof of address drama" with my remortgage application because every lender seems to have very different and illogical rules about what kind of proof of address each accepts: some accept online statements, some don't, some accept letters from certain government bodies but not others, some don't, etc. My wife has online statements only, which the broker is saying wouldn't be accepted, etc etc etc etc...

Yesterday, however, I applied for a Monzo debit card simply by taking a picture of my passport and shooting a short video of me saying: Hi, my name is X, and I want a Monzo card.

This got me thinking: is this Bizantine system of requiring proof of address really a legal or regulatory requirement, or is it just a convention? If it were a legal requirement, I'd expect more consistency over what kind of documents are accepted and what are not.

The current system may have made sense decades ago, but now that everything is online - yet no one seems to accept online statements - it is anachronistic. Not just that: I am not convinced it does much to deter fraud, since any 7-year old with a PC could easily print a fake "proof of address", yet it does contribute to making life difficult to those who have no intention of cheating!

Going back to the original post:
1) No - they is no legal requirement to see physical proof of address (POA) as confirm by your experience with Monzo.
2) Monzo have done some electronic checks (such as electoral register) so they have confirmed your address in the background. Monzo are not taking customers without other bank accounts which allows them to have a simple process. They also need to have a friction-less process as they are a remote offering. It is not without some issues though as per my earlier link.
3) Your mortgage broker is possibly hedging. Requiring a standard level of ID and POA that will be transferrable to any lender. Or they deal with too many lenders to know each set of conditions in detail. Or they could have chosen a lender with the most conservative criteria.
4) I don't think there would be an appetite to align Know Your Customer and Anti-Money Laundering conditions across banks. It would stifle innovation, and would probably be aligned to most conservative rather than minimum requirements. It would probably keep underserved customers without bank accounts. It would depend who owned it, and how it was implemented of course.