ECP POPLA Code issued...now what?

waamo

Keeper liability means that the registered keeper can be held liable for the charge if the driver cannot be identified. It is a clause in the Protection of Freedom Act (POFA).

The parking company has a few legal hurdles to jump to invoke keeper liability. An awful lot of companies still don't manage it properly.

Redx

you can allege that the landholder authority is flawed due to no signing date, also see if it specifies a term as it may have expired (could have been 12 months for all you or I know)

as mentioned above, they are trying to make the KEEPER liable for the charge (and not the driver) - so if the driver wasnt identified then the only way the keeper is liable is if they followed POFA2012 , section 4 , to the letter, otherwise they have failed

so look for where they may have failed POFA2012 (the law) and mention all instances in your rebuttal , failed timescales , failed to identify the creditor/landholder , failed to put the correct wording in the NTK (or not even sent an NTK) etc

they are stating they have complied with all of these things in order to hold a KEEPER liable for the pcn , so look for any and all FAILURES by studying their evidence pack and finding each and every failures and highlight it in your rebuttal

see what other rebuttals on here say, in order to formulate your own

there is no way you have done any of this in the timeframe since I posted earlier , it would take most people a few days to go through it all, hence why you get 7 days from popla

crucial points are

no current landholder authority
poor and indaequate signage
BPA CoP failures (have you studied that CoP ?)
POFA2012 schedule 4 failures (have you studied pofa yet ?)
Grace periods (clause #13)
not the same as BEAVIS (as he was on a free site and overstayed)

DoaM

Redx wrote: »

not the same as BEAVIS (as he was on a free site and overstayed)

Actually Beavis probably does apply here ... ECP tend to "manage" parking at retail sites. However it is probable that the ECP signs can be distinguished from Beavis as they'll not be as clear as the PE signs were in that case.

first78

Redx wrote: »

you can allege that the landholder authority is flawed due to no signing date, also see if it specifies a term as it may have expired (could have been 12 months for all you or I know)

as mentioned above, they are trying to make the KEEPER liable for the charge (and not the driver) - so if the driver wasnt identified then the only way the keeper is liable is if they followed POFA2012 , section 4 , to the letter, otherwise they have failed

so look for where they may have failed POFA2012 (the law) and mention all instances in your rebuttal , failed timescales , failed to identify the creditor/landholder , failed to put the correct wording in the NTK (or not even sent an NTK) etc

they are stating they have complied with all of these things in order to hold a KEEPER liable for the pcn , so look for any and all FAILURES by studying their evidence pack and finding each and every failures and highlight it in your rebuttal

see what other rebuttals on here say, in order to formulate your own

there is no way you have done any of this in the timeframe since I posted earlier , it would take most people a few days to go through it all, hence why you get 7 days from popla

crucial points are

no current landholder authority
poor and indaequate signage
BPA CoP failures (have you studied that CoP ?)
POFA2012 schedule 4 failures (have you studied pofa yet ?)
Grace periods (clause #13)
not the same as BEAVIS (as he was on a free site and overstayed)

I've spent an hour reading Schedule 4 of POFA and I still don't understand it...I'm sorry, this legal wording just makes no sense to me.


The date of the Parking charge was 12th May and the date of the letter on the PCN was 19th May. I then appealed on 23rd May.


I only ever received the PCN, followed by the letter rejecting my appeal from ECP. I never received a NTK...should I have done?

Redx

was the pcn in the post ? or a windscreen ticket ?

if it was the one in the post dated 19th may , then that postal notice (PCN) was the NTK (Notice To Keeper) - I take it that YOU are the Keeper

so if they issued a postal Notice to Keeper (Parking Charge Notice) on the 19th of May , how can you say you the KEEPER didnt get one ? (note the initials)

think about it , its basic english , not brain surgery !

bear in mind that legal matters are complicated , as are UK laws , so nobody is expecting you to understand it

but we all have to work with what is there and so do you (as very few of us are legally trained either - this isnt legal beagles forum)

the NEWBIES sticky thread and the BMPA Zendesk explain what to check , comparing your NTK to what should be mentioned on it , in order for POFA2012 to be invoked

so its your job to see if they complied with all the relevant details

clearly it seems they complied with the timescales, so if they have then it rules out the timescale aspect of pofa2012 (14 days to get a pcn NTK to you following an ANPR incident)

so check if they followed all the other requirements that should have ben on that NTK

Quentin

first78 wrote: »

The date of the Parking charge was 12th May and the date of the letter on the PCN was 19th May. I then appealed on 23rd May.


I only ever received the PCN, followed by the letter rejecting my appeal from ECP. I never received a NTK...should I have done?

Wasn't the letter of 19 May the NTK?? If not, what was it about??

first78

I'm sorry I didn't realise that the PCN and the NTK were one and the same thing.

Redx

read what the NEWBIES sticky thread told you weeks ago when you read it , which includes what an NTK is and how to check it (it also mentions NTK and PCN in the same sentence too)

Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper, if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (bear in mind not all tickets or NTKs comply with this Schedule, so check yours, look for the words shown in paragraph 8 if it's a windscreen ticket followed by a NTK, or the words in paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN):

[/FONT]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

If the NTK arrives provably late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.

If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to) the a postal PCN has to arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket

so read paragraph 9 , and check your postal NTK (the pcn) against that paragraph 9

does it fail on any point ? if yes, write down the details and what it failed on

these issues go into your rebuttal (if any arise)

if they fully complied with POFA2012 then it wont be of use , but your appeals probably stated that they failed, so find those failures and highlight them

Redx

Edna_Basher wrote: »

There's no need to feel intimidated by the contents of ECP's letter - it's just their standard template rejection that they send to everyone.

Hopefully you didn't reveal who was driving when you made your initial submission to ECP.

There's currently a flaw in the wording of ECP's postal PCNs which means that they don't comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act. This means that a vehicle's keeper should win at POPLA on this point......so long as the driver has not been identified.

read the above you were told weeks and weeks ago

look for that flaw in their wording compared to POFA2012

I think it was a flawed date if I remember correctly (or maybe they dont quote the correct wording for POFA2012 to hold up ?)

as a side issue, WHY oh WHY have you not complained to Sainsburys and got the pcn cancelled by them as the landholder ?

you were in their supermarket/cafe etc , a paying customer , so why no strong complaint , in writing , to their CEO or HEAD OFFICE

you need to think outside the box and be pro-active with these things

they employed these par@sites , so are responsible, so threaten them with losing your custom, show redacted receipts and bank statements etc, go got their jugular, make them see the grief they bring to loyal customers !!!

it really p***s me off that people dont complain about these things, these businesses rely on customers frequenting their stores , spending money

Authority to issue tickets (part 2)
sometimes parking company contacts do not allow charges to be made to first time offenders. This is known to be the case in at least some Tesco and Sainsbury parking contracts where the retailer (quite rightly) does not want to issue charges to motorists unless they are repeatedly breaking the rules (e.g. not those that accidentally break the rules – the majority

remember , ECP say its a Sainsburys car park, managed by ECP, so ECP dont own it

my local Morrisons and ASDA have NO parking restrictions for customers , who can stay AS LONG AS THEY LIKE ! (and yes they both have cafes , usually very busy cafes too)

Redx

The Notice to Keeper

Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA stipulates the mandatory information that must be included in the Notice to Keeper. If all of this information is not present then the Notice to Keeper is invalid and the condition set out in paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Failure to comply with paragraph 6 means that the registered keeper cannot be held to account for the alleged debt of the driver.

• Which car the ticket relates to
• What land the car was parked on
• The period the car was parked
• Advise that the driver is liable for the parking charge and the amount and that it has not been paid in full
• State whether a notice to the driver was given either to the driver or placed on the vehicle and if so to repeat the information in that notice about paying the parking charge and when
• Specify the outstanding amount of the parking charge and of the maximum additional costs they may seek to recover, and of the dispute resolution arrangements
• Invite the registered keeper to pay the outstanding parking charge or, if he was not the driver, to provide the name and address of the driver and to pass a copy of the notice on to that driver
• Identify the “creditor” who is legally entitled to recover the parking charge
• Warn the keeper that if the parking charges remains outstanding after 28 days and the name and address of the driver has not been given, or otherwise known to the person entitled to the parking charge, that “creditor” will be entitled to recover the parking charge from the registered keeper.
• Details of the discount for payment within 14 days, The Discount should be at least 40% of the full charge under the BPA Code of Practice (applies to BPA Members only)
• Date of the notice

Schedule 4 paragraphs 8(5) or 9(5) specify the time limits for serving a Notice to Keeper. If this is not complied with then the registered keeper cannot be held to account for the alleged debt of the driver.
A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid, must be delivered either

1. (Where a notice to driver (parking ticket) has been served) Not earlier than 28 days after, nor more than 56 days after, the service of that notice to driver; or
2. (Where no notice to driver has been served (e.g ANPR is used)) Not later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked

A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
The notice to keeper must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed in Regulations made under paragraph 10 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As at February 2013 no such Regulations have been made.

see the above checklist I found above