ECP POPLA Code issued...now what?

first78

Redx wrote: »

use a pc or laptop tomorrow or friday (stop messing about on tablets and do it properly)

Will get on it tomorrow, sadly no laptop or pic access at home.

Redx

fair enough , but you are making your IPAD problem our problem, its nothing to do with your appeal or pcn , try a computer or apple forum for ipad problems

either way, we always do what bargepole said and tell people to use a pc or a laptop

you are looking at obstacles instead of solutions and trying to make your problem our problem - which wont make you any friends here (reminds me of corbyn trying to use his IPAD on that womens hour radio programme , lol)

so as I said , get on a laptop or a pc later this week and do it properly

first78

Okay, so ECP have submitted 29 pages of evidence, most of which is photographs detailing all the signs around the car park where I exceeded the 3 hour stay by 31 minutes.


I don't have a valid reason for overstaying (I lost track of time as I had lunch in the supermarket caf! with a friend after doing some shopping). I really don't know what to submit as my 'evidence' now and would greatly appreciate any help. Thanks in advance

Quentin

Having a "valid" reason would be irrelevant anyway!!


Have you read up in the newbies faq thread about the game you are caught up in?


You need to spend time understanding how this should be dealt with - the newbies faq thread explains what to expect in the PPC evidence and how to go about rebutting it

nosferatu1001

Ok, you are well past coming up with new reasons. Your appeal is already in.

Your job now is to rebut their evidence pack. If you asked for proof of landowner authority is it there? Is it legible? Does it civervthe dates required? And so on.

first78

This is the bulk of the response and then ECP have included loads of photos of signage and of my car entering and exiting the car park. I’m not sure what I’m looking for in terms of contesting their evidence and would be grateful if someone could take a look and advise me further.

ECP response to POPLA appeal logged by Miss XXX
This location is managed by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology which takes a picture of the vehicle entering and exiting the site, these pictures are timed and therefore the duration of the stay can be calculated. All vehicle registration numbers are then matched against the data produced by the various means of paying for parking and a list of registration numbers where no payment has been made or where the motorist has stayed longer than the period paid is produced. After requesting vehicle keeper details from the DVLA, a Notice to keeper is sent to the keepers of the vehicles on this list. As a consequence at ANPR locations there will be no PCN issued to the windscreen neither will there be photographic evidence of the windscreen supplied in operator evidence packs.

Parking Charge Notice XXXXXXXXXX was issued to vehicle XXXXXXX for breach of terms and conditions A: Your vehicle was parked longer than the maximum period allowed at Sainsburys - XXXXX. This car park operates a 24 hour ANPR operation therefore all vehicles are required to adhere to the signage which clearly states – ‘Maximum Stay 3 hours’.
In Miss XXX appeal to POPLA; she stated the following:

- No evidence of Landowner Authority
- The signs in this car park are not prominent
- Amount demanded is a penalty
- Euro Car Parks Notice to Keeper ‘issued/given’ dates conflict and do not comply with Schedule 4 – No Keeper Liability
- No Driver Liability

first78

In relation on the points raised by Miss XXX appeal to POPLA I can confirm the following

• Section 18.3 of the British Parking Association’s (BPA) code of practice explains that signs “must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signage on site is clear, when parking on private land it is the driver’s responsibility to read the signage displayed and parked accordance with the terms and conditions as stated. Euro Car Parks have provided photographic evidence showing that the appellant remained at the site for 3 hours and 31 minutes (Figure 1)
• Signage on site is clear, when parking on private land it is the driver’s responsibility to read the signage displayed and parked accordance with the terms and conditions as stated
• The signage clearly states the terms and conditions of parking, all drivers are required to adhere to the signage which clearly states the 3 hours maximum stay on site.
• Signage is visble when entering and inside of the car park and when entering private land it would be the driver’s responsibilty to read the terms and conditions and adhere to them. (Figure 2 – See Section 7)
• The car park in question is on private land and upon entering such land vehicles are subject to the terms and conditions of parking as shown on the signage. This signage quite clearly states that if your vehicle is in breach of the terms and conditions of the car park then a parking charge notice (PCN) will be issued.
• On entry to private land it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has been correctly parked. Any vehicles found not adhering to the signage will be issued with a parking charge notice (PCN).
• Euro Car Parks only operates locations which are situated on private land, are not council owned and that Euro Car Parks has written authority to operate and issue parking charge notices on all of our locations from the landowner
• Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price.
• With regards to the reference to “Pre-Estimate of Loss/breach of consumer contracts 1999.” Please be advised that the Supreme Court has made judgement (04/11/15) that clearly sets out the issue of parking charge notices on private land (law of contract applies) and in particular pre-estimate of loss. The parking charge notice is enforceable on the basis that it protected a legitimate interest when the driver failed to adhere to the terms and conditions and was not extravagant, exorbitant nor unconscionable. The parking charge is not an unenforceable penalty and does not breach the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.
• Figure 3 is where I can confirm our PCN is POFA compliant. Please note that the “Date of issue” is the date of the event/breach of conditions. The “Letter date” is the date of when the PCN letter was sent to the registered keeper’s address.
• If the car park is camera controlled then obviously the PCN letter is not left on the vehicle on the day of the contravention as there are no patrol officers on site. The PCN is sent once the details of the registered keeper are obtained from the DVLA.
• Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid.
• Figure 4 is the agreement between Sainsbury’s and ECP to manage the car park.

first78

It is clear from Miss XXX original appeal that she did not adhere to the clear signage on site and did not adhere to signage which clearly states – ‘Maximum Stay 3 hours’
The signage clearly states the terms and conditions of parking, it clearly states it is a camera controlled car park for authorised vehicles only. Miss XXX vehicle was not authorised to be parked
Vehicle XXX entered the car park at 07:59 and exited at 11:31; a total duration of 3 hours and 31 minutes therefore Euro Car Parks asses that the parking charge notice was issued correctly and should remain payable

Redx

read recent 2017 rebuttals (as you are at the rebuttal stage) and look for flaws and errors in their evidence pack and highlight them by rebutting them in your rebuttal

such as

contract errors , like not signed and dated, expired , no landholder authority , terms differ to what the PPC have alleged (like free parking time etc)

look for signage flaws , errors , failures under the BPA CoP etc

POFA 2012 FAILURES , errors , admittance they are not using POFA2012, that they have not identified the driver , that they followed procedures etc

look for reasons under GRACE PERIODS to try to account for 31 minutes , like delays in finding a parking space , delays in leaving the car park etc (21 minutes would have been easier to argue , 10 before and 11 after)

basically , take apart what they say and look for legal reasons to rebut their pack, just the points you can win on

first78

Redx wrote: »

read recent 2017 rebuttals (as you are at the rebuttal stage) and look for flaws and errors in their evidence pack and highlight them by rebutting them in your rebuttal

such as

contract errors , like not signed and dated, expired , no landholder authority , terms differ to what the PPC have alleged (like free parking time etc)

look for signage flaws , errors , failures under the BPA CoP etc

POFA 2012 FAILURES , errors , admittance they are not using POFA2012, that they have not identified the driver , that they followed procedures etc

look for reasons under GRACE PERIODS to try to account for 31 minutes , like delays in finding a parking space , delays in leaving the car park etc (21 minutes would have been easier to argue , 10 before and 11 after)

basically , take apart what they say and look for legal reasons to rebut their pack, just the points you can win on

Thanks very much for your advice. I'm struggling because I do not understand what all the jargon in ECP's evidence means. I have at no point identified the driver but I don't really understand what the Keeper Liability is or what it means.


ECP have provided a signed document signed by Sainsburys and ECP detailing Landowner Authority...again, I don't really understand the document but it was signed on 13 June (no year on Sainsburys signature) and 13 June 2016 by ECP.


I don't know what signage flaws I am looking for, there are signs up all over the car park and they have provided numerous pictures.


I will look at grace periods.


Just beginning to feel beaten by this...I feel stressed because I don't understand what I'm doing and with only having 5 days to make a written response I'm in a bit of a panic.