Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

BobQ

Matt_L wrote: »

Maybe its because they're sick to death of your one sided arguments. You don't seem to understand, it doesn't matter what you think, say or what rubbish you spout we are leaving. Its very clear to me that you would love to see the UK fail, you are probably praying for it to go horribly wrong, but it won't..
..

Its not the fault of the establishment that Brexit is happening. The then Government and Opposition and the Lib Dems and the SNP and the Greens and PC all wanted to remain. Even the Queen was sporting a hat with similarities to the EU flag.

Brexit has been caused by the Great British public. It matters not a jot if they were members of the establishment or the unemployed. It does not matter if they were clever and based their arguments on principles or intellectually challenged, or whether they were easily persuaded.

Whatever their problems they saw the EU as the cause of them and leaving as the solution. Matt L exemplifies the problem, anyone who expresses views that he disagrees with does not matter and is somehow unpatriotic. Its this kind of intolerance that undermines democratic rights.

Sapphire

BobQ wrote: »

Its this kind of intolerance that undermines democratic rights.

Good Lord! I'd have thought it would be clear by now to most people (unless their minds are completely shut) that there's plenty of evidence that those wanting to undermine the democratic vote for obviously self-serving interests are the ones who are clearly 'undermining democratic rights'. The same can be said about the unelected (thus undemocratic) EU commissars who are constantly spouting bile and spite at us, and attempting to act in a dictatorial manner, instead of focusing on reaching an arrangement with our country. If anything has strengthened my conviction that we should leave, it is the undemocratic behaviour of such people. Roll on the day.:T

Matt_L

BobQ wrote: »

Its not the fault of the establishment that Brexit is happening. The then Government and Opposition and the Lib Dems and the SNP and the Greens and PC all wanted to remain. Even the Queen was sporting a hat with similarities to the EU flag.

Brexit has been caused by the Great British public. It matters not a jot if they were members of the establishment or the unemployed. It does not matter if they were clever and based their arguments on principles or intellectually challenged, or whether they were easily persuaded.

Whatever their problems they saw the EU as the cause of them and leaving as the solution. Matt L exemplifies the problem, anyone who expresses views that he disagrees with does not matter and is somehow unpatriotic. Its this kind of intolerance that undermines democratic rights.

Its not that i disagree with his/her views one bit, its the lies and misinformation that they continue to spout... He/she basks and gloats in anything happening that is negative to the wellbeing of the UK and after many many pages of it, one gets a little fed up...

I read the thoughts and concerns of many other remainers with tolerance and acceptance:)

kabayiri

Thrugelmir wrote: »

We are discussing the basis of a trade agreement that's all. Selling internationally is hard work. Nothing is a given. Hence our huge trade deficit with the EU.

Instant On society I'm afraid.

We seem to have lost the ability for any long term vision.

Building a new trading relationship elsewhere could take years.

Speaking of long term vision, this was totally absent from the Brexit debate. Nobody really talked in the media about the long term goals for the EU going forward.

Voting for Remain was sold as a vote for the status quo, which is not true is it.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

Where do you get tens of billions from?

Estimate. I'll try and bash together some better numbers later. How much do you think the EU has spent on Brexit? The extra summits, reviews, studies, flights, hotel stays, admin, printing? They've presumably had people working on this stuff for over a year now.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

What do you have if you don't have MPs who understand the top concerns of their voters?

What do you have if you have MPs who understand that the top concerns of their voters are largely nonsense? The complaints going to MP's on a daily basis must be... interesting, I guess?

Not that I'm saying all public concerns are bad, but I suspect the usual 80/20 rule applies here (80% of complaints are petty nonsense and 20% is valid).

You'd be slamming MP's for following up on any old crap, and you'll presumably slam the same MP's for not doing anything about the obviously crap.

I'm not saying I like MP's, but "top concerns of their voters" and "reality" are unlikely to even be tangentially related.

BobQ

Sapphire wrote: »

Good Lord! I'd have thought it would be clear by now to most people (unless their minds are completely shut) that there's plenty of evidence that those wanting to undermine the democratic vote for obviously self-serving interests are the ones who are clearly 'undermining democratic rights'. The same can be said about the unelected (thus undemocratic) EU commissars who are constantly spouting bile and spite at us, and attempting to act in a dictatorial manner, instead of focusing on reaching an arrangement with our country. If anything has strengthened my conviction that we should leave, it is the undemocratic behaviour of such people. Roll on the day.:T

I've no wish to re-run the pre-referendum debate or question the out come. What I do object to is the statement "it doesn't matter what you think, say or what rubbish you spout we are leaving."

The democratic right I refer to is freedom of speech. You do not have to condemn people for having a different view to yourself. As far as I know accepting the outcome of a referendum does not carry with it the obligation not to comment on the future of your country. Tell me how long do you expect anyone who voted Remain to refrain from speaking about their opinions?

always_sunny

kabayiri wrote: »

It's happened elsewhere.

If you ever get to visit a place like Canada, you can't help but notice the change in the models of cars on the road.

I can see why. My sis priced up the equivalent Volvo SUV to the Korean car she ended up buying. Adding in all the spec it was something like $20K dollars more! That's not small change.

Problems for UK post Brexit can be seen in a different light, in that they are opportunities for other countries. I know about one Asian IT firm considering a significant purchase of UK business.

But Canada's proximity is not the same as the UK and the EU.
Problem with UK post Brexit might be solved only if the country is ready for change.
There're many foreign companies snapping UK businesses, that's another problem in the UK.

BobQ

Matt_L wrote: »

Its not that i disagree with his/her views one bit, its the lies and misinformation that they continue to spout... He/she basks and gloats in anything happening that is negative to the wellbeing of the UK and after many many pages of it, one gets a little fed up...

I read the thoughts and concerns of many other remainers with tolerance and acceptance:)

In what way was his comment untrue?

"Negative to the well being of the UK" means what? You disagree, its does not glorify the nation, its treason?

My view (if I am allowed to express it) is that gpflux is asking valid questions which others chose not to answer or trivialise. Maybe he is coming across as a critic, but as we approach the cliff edge of leaving the Government needs to address them. Maybe they are doing so and all is wonderful behind the closed doors, but the questions are relevant.

Since the public decided to leave, we have seen more EU trade deals that we will not benefit from, continuing uncertainty on the status of EU and UK nationals, an unnecessary and an amazingly inconclusive election and the pound falling raising interest rates. I can understand that an enthusiastic Brexit supporter can look on these as unimportant, but for the rest however you voted it is a worrying situation.

Sapphire

kabayiri wrote: »

Speaking of long term vision, this was totally absent from the Brexit debate. Nobody really talked in the media about the long term goals for the EU going forward.

Do you suppose for one minute that had the idea of a 'United States of Europe' been broached, many British people would have voted for that? I for one, felt reassured that no such thing was going to happen, that there would be no EU army, and so on. Yet despite that, I still voted Leave, because of the way we were being dictated to by an undemocratic, distant body composed of foreign powers. It made me feel deeply uneasy.

The very idea of yet another empire, and run by Germany, scares the hell out of me. It's something that will never work in the long run – the countries of Europe are too different in character to agree to it. Economic links, yes, but not political ones involving countries being dictated to without their citizens having any say about their individual destinies, laws, policies, and so on, and without being able to boot out the unelected commissars.