Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

Rusty_Shackleton

mrginge wrote: »

So what you're telling us is that people who voted to stop immigration (apparently) have been unduly influenced by the foreigners who they now want to ban. And your solution is to ban those foreigners because that will mean people won't want to ban foreigners.

Thanks rusty.

Those are an awful lot of words you've put in my mouth there, so let me clarify:

- Foreign (and non-dom) newspaper owners do not give a flying f**k about immigrants in this country one way or the other. All they care about is their own wealth and political influence. The problem is that the anti-immigrant and anti-EU rhetoric is all a distraction, I would argue mainly to protect the tax dodgers that own the mail and the telegraph. With Murdoch it was more about punishing Cameron over Leveson.
- Selling newspapers and gaining political influence is a lot easier by targeting peoples prejudices. For example, papers that stoke fears about immigrants overrunning the country sell more than those that try to present balanced journalism about who comes here and why, discussing the impact of government policy, and so on.
- I'm saying that foreign and non-dom newspaper owners are happy to spew hatred as long as it serves their goals, and immigrants have always been an easy target.
- At no point did I say the people that own papers are the same people trying to immigrate to this country, and Murdoch would fit the criteria of immigrant the racists are okay with (white from commonwealth country), and the non-doms that own the telegraph and the mail are british born.

Do you have any reasonable points to add or is twisting my words to try and suit your narrative the best you can do?

kabayiri

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Try again. Not all brexit voters are racist, but I'd put good money on all racists being pro brexit. I'm looking forward to those that voted leave because they are racists, not getting what they want. How the hell can you think racists not getting what they want is a bad thing?

If you look outside London, many of the areas where Muslims numbered in to double digit percentages of the population, these areas also voted for Brexit.

Could it be that some of these people would rather Asian people to come here and get jobs rather than Poles or Romanians?

I could call this behaviour racially motivated. But, I prefer to think that there is an inbuilt protectionism on all sides.

kabayiri

Seabee42 wrote: »

...
I also do not think it helped the vote that there are large numbers of illegal immigrants who live in this country and have done for years. The message from the government is very much not listening don't care not bothered.
...

The message is very clear. Mass immigration was never an issue for any recent government until it started to hurt them at the polling station.

Back in the mid noughties, Labour completely underestimated the numbers who would take up the option to come here.

Either they were incompetent, or they didn't care.

Rusty_Shackleton

kabayiri wrote: »

If you look outside London, many of the areas where Muslims numbered in to double digit percentages of the population, these areas also voted for Brexit.

Could it be that some of these people would rather Asian people to come here and get jobs rather than Poles or Romanians?

I could call this behaviour racially motivated. But, I prefer to think that there is an inbuilt protectionism on all sides.

I would agree that could be protectionism, although, entirely possible for an Asian British person to be racist towards eastern Europeans, for example.

It's also possible that areas with a high number of Muslims have an awful lot of people who bought into fears of Muslim immigration and refugees (Turkey joining the EU, Syrian refugees etc.) and so wanted to stop more Muslims coming to their area, thinking a leave vote would achieve that.

Rusty_Shackleton

kabayiri wrote: »

The message is very clear. Mass immigration was never an issue for any recent government until it started to hurt them at the polling station.

Back in the mid noughties, Labour completely underestimated the numbers who would take up the option to come here.

Either they were incompetent, or they didn't care.

There is also the consideration that many believe (in government and economic circles before I get hounded for not being clear enough!) that immigration boosts the economy. With an ageing population and skills shortages, it could simply be that dealing with those problems was seen as a higher priority than a few people not liking foreign languages spoken on the high street.

It's a lot easier for politicians to pretend to be anti-immigrant while pursuing this policy, rather than trying to explain a complex situation to the electorate... especially with the rabid right wing press.

kabayiri

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

I would agree that could be protectionism, although, entirely possible for an Asian British person to be racist towards eastern Europeans, for example.

It's also possible that areas with a high number of Muslims have an awful lot of people who bought into fears of Muslim immigration and refugees (Turkey joining the EU, Syrian refugees etc.) and so wanted to stop more Muslims coming to their area, thinking a leave vote would achieve that.

You basically point to multiple factors which could steer someone's decision on voting to Leave.

Which is why I don't need to second guess others. I am only responsible for how I voted, nobody else. I don't need to worry about any association based on age; location; religion; etc. We weren't all bussed in to the polling station with a mandate.

Thrugelmir

kabayiri wrote: »

Back in the mid noughties, Labour completely underestimated the numbers who would take up the option to come here.

Either they were incompetent, or they didn't care.

Wasn't an issue back then. As a refresher when countries joined more recently.

01/05/2004 Cyprus
Czech Republic
Estonia
Hungary
Hungary
Latvia
Lithuania
Malta
Poland
Slovakia
Slovenia
01/01/2007 Bulgaria
Romania
01/07/2013 Croatia

Coincides with the change in public opinion. From neutral to overtly opposed.

Private_Church

always_sunny wrote: »

But there's no reduction in the supplied of unskilled labour yet and wage growth (at least current) is still below inflation so there goes your squeeze.

One of the problems with wage growth for those at the bottom is the limitless supply of cheap labour from the EU,especially Poland,Bulgaria,Romania and Lithuania. Even if these migrants are better educated than the British workers they earn peanuts in their home countries compared to working here for National Minimum wage.

You can't deny this fact and the National minimum wage in places like Romania is around €6000 and in the UK its around £16,000. This is why so many Eastern Europeans are coming here, even the educated ones doing menian jobs are earning more money here than they would at home being employed in skilled jobs.

Now we are constantly told on here the reason house prices are so high is down to the lack of supply so logically build more houses and their values will fall and yet we are told that EU migrants don't suppress the wages of the lowest paid. Like any product/service if you flood the market the value of that product falls, if you restrict supply of that product ,its value rises..If you look at the chart below the majority of EU A10 countries citizens are working in historically low paid jobs. Flood the market with cheap labour and wages will stagnate.If it wasn't for the UK Govt raising the NMW rates then the wages for the low skilled wouldn't rise at all because there is always a bus full of Romanians around the corner waiting to pick cabbages for £7-50hr.

I honestly believe the EU made a grave mistake by allowing the Eastern European countires to join in 2004 and if they hadn't allowed them in the UK would still be in the EU .



https://select-statistics.co.uk/blog/eu-migrants-represented-across-uk-workforce/

House affordability is another matter, the slump in the pound is making it extremely cheap for foreigners to buy.

So the fall in the value of Sterling (down to 2011 value) is down to Brexit?.. Talk about grasping at straws. Sterling was always going to find its true value after being over valued for years through HPI and QE and you know that full well.

mrginge

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Those are an awful lot of words you've put in my mouth there, so let me clarify:

- Foreign (and non-dom) newspaper owners do not give a flying f**k about immigrants in this country one way or the other. All they care about is their own wealth and political influence. The problem is that the anti-immigrant and anti-EU rhetoric is all a distraction, I would argue mainly to protect the tax dodgers that own the mail and the telegraph. With Murdoch it was more about punishing Cameron over Leveson.
- Selling newspapers and gaining political influence is a lot easier by targeting peoples prejudices. For example, papers that stoke fears about immigrants overrunning the country sell more than those that try to present balanced journalism about who comes here and why, discussing the impact of government policy, and so on.
- I'm saying that foreign and non-dom newspaper owners are happy to spew hatred as long as it serves their goals, and immigrants have always been an easy target.
- At no point did I say the people that own papers are the same people trying to immigrate to this country, and Murdoch would fit the criteria of immigrant the racists are okay with (white from commonwealth country), and the non-doms that own the telegraph and the mail are british born.

Do you have any reasonable points to add or is twisting my words to try and suit your narrative the best you can do?

I'm just trying to get it straight in my head which 'type' of foreigners you like and which ones you don't.
After all, you're the one talking about banning people and restricting press freedoms matey, not me.

Rusty_Shackleton

No Mrginge, im talking about banning foreign interests from owning newspapers, not the quite the same as banning any individuals from coming here is it? Im quite happy for Murdoch to emigrate here, and if he resides here and pays taxes, id be happy for him to own newspapers here too. Until he has a vested interest in the success and wellbeing of this country and its people, i dont think he should be allowed to stoke hatred in order to make a quick buck from abroad.