Refurbished Laptop Fault - Do I have any rights?

bris

DavidP24 wrote: »

If you bought this on a personal account with personal money (not a biz bank account) it was effectively a consumer purchase.

No it wasn't as its used daily for work this is a business laptop consumer rights don't apply. It makes absolutely no difference how it was purchased or where the funds came from.


If you didn't know when you use a consumer product for business reasons warranties are void. It's no secret that companies exclude warranties for commercial use unless you buy them for that intended purpose, then the terms of the contract apply.

DoaM

bris wrote: »

No it wasn't as its used daily for work this is a business laptop consumer rights don't apply. It makes absolutely no difference how it was purchased or where the funds came from.

OP says it was bought as a consumer purchase and ONLY LATER was it then used for business (AFTER the OP became self employed).

This was and is a consumer purchase and consumer rights apply.

DavidP24

bris wrote: »

No it wasn't as its used daily for work this is a business laptop consumer rights don't apply. It makes absolutely no difference how it was purchased or where the funds came from.

If you didn't know when you use a consumer product for business reasons warranties are void. It's no secret that companies exclude warranties for commercial use unless you buy them for that intended purpose, then the terms of the contract apply.

You might be able to make that argument with a drill but not with a laptop, I have laptops that have been in use 18 hours a day for 9 years and not business use.

There is no discernible difference in th e way OP is using this.

He bought it as a consumer, he uses it as a consumer and also takes it to work.

The thing is 5 months old for goodness sake, but not a refurb of a 20 year laptop.

unholyangel

DavidP24 wrote: »

You might be able to make that argument with a drill but not with a laptop, I have laptops that have been in use 18 hours a day for 9 years and not business use.

There is no discernible difference in th e way OP is using this.

He bought it as a consumer, he uses it as a consumer and also takes it to work.

The thing is 5 months old for goodness sake, but not a refurb of a 20 year laptop.

The subject matter of the contract makes no difference to whether its a b2b or not (nor does it being paid for with personal funds else you're alleging a sole trader is always a consumer). Its dependent on the definition given by the relevant piece of legislation (which can vary).

The definition given in the Consumer Rights Act is:

(3)“Consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession.

The explanatory notes provide:

The other main restriction on who is a consumer is that a consumer must be acting wholly or mainly outside their trade, business, craft or profession. This means, for example, that a person who buys a kettle for their home, works from home one day a week and uses it on the days when working from home would still be a consumer. Conversely a sole trader that operates from a private dwelling who buys a printer of which 95% of the use is for the purposes of the business, is not likely to be held to be a consumer (and therefore the rights in this Part will not protect that sole trader but they would have to look to other legislation. For example, if the sole trader were buying goods, they would have to look to the SGA for protections about the quality of the goods).

However, the CRA also gives us:

(4)A trader claiming that an individual was not acting for purposes wholly or mainly outside the individual’s trade, business, craft or profession must prove it.

So I think OP should be in the clear unless the OP has done something foolish like tell them they need it for business use.

DesignerLuke

I'm foolish then! My first contact with them mentioned that I use it for work... If that really is an issue that I suppose it'll have to be a harsh lesson learned. It was purchased as a personal expense under my own bank account of course so we will see what happens. I don't completely understand where the transition between consumer use and business use is however. I used the laptop daily with an even 50/50 split between personal and business time at an estimate.

Their last message to me literally minutes ago is a near copy of their previous message. They don't recommend that I run any SSD diagnostics tests or take the laptop local 3rd party repair shop for a quote and ultimately they won't state whether they will reimburse any courier costs if a fault is found and still suggest that I will get a 'repair quote' even if I do return it this way.

Still can't believe I'm having to seek the repair of a premium laptop just 5 months after it had been refurbished by the manufacturers! Will update when they next reply...

DavidP24

I do not know WHY you are ASKING them about running manufacturer diagnostics or taking to a 3rd party shop,

They wanted evidence, I have given you the means to produce that evidence

Just do it

Then present the evidence

After that you say to them that you are NOT prepared to return it for a "quote for repair" and you want a commitment from them to take the machine back to repair/replace the faulty components.

The business aspect is a red herring, the contracted party is you not a company, you have not abused this laptop.

It is entirely reasonable that they seek evidence that a device is faulty.

I have given you the means to establish that

Diagnostics have read and write tests, you really only want to run the read tests.

If it were me I would grab a spare drive and whack it in there, then install Windows to that drive, that would establish if the problem was with the SSD or elsewhere in the computer.

If it all loaded OK I would then seek to remove my data from the SSD by pluggin it into an external hard disk case or adapter

If I was not able to access the disk then that would suggest a bad disk

I would then run the diagnostics on it.

I think you need to make a choice, either you take reasonable steps to confirm it is actually faulty. ( you may want to create a thread in the Techie Stuff forum) then pursue them if you have established a hardware fault.

Otherwise you just bite the bullet and move on.

You can't complain if you do nothing to help yourself.

wealdroam

DavidP24 wrote: »

It is entirely reasonable that they seek evidence that a device is faulty.

I have given you the means to establish that

Diagnostics have read and write tests, you really only want to run the read tests.

If it were me I would grab a spare drive and whack it in there, then install Windows to that drive, that would establish if the problem was with the SSD or elsewhere in the computer.

If it all loaded OK I would then seek to remove my data from the SSD by pluggin it into an external hard disk case or adapter

If I was not able to access the disk then that would suggest a bad disk

I would then run the diagnostics on it.

I think you need to make a choice, either you take reasonable steps to confirm it is actually faulty. ( you may want to create a thread in the Techie Stuff forum) then pursue them if you have established a hardware fault.

All you have given here is a means to confirm that the thing is faulty.

We already know that - the OP has told us so.

What needs to be determined is that the problem is due to an inherent fault.
An inherent fault is one that was present at the time of the sale but not necessarily apparent at that time.

Proving that the hard disk is not performing correctly does nothing towards encouraging the seller to provide a remedy.
It does not confirm how the HD came to be in that state.

As said earlier, the OP doesn't need to prove anything - that is the responsibility of the seller.

OP, as suggested on post#10, get writing a letter before action.
There are many sample LBAs on the web.

DesignerLuke

UPDATE: Still awaiting a reply from the supplier but as they have previously specified that the standard repair time is 14 days (which is much longer than I'd like to wait), I've ordered the necessary parts to test the suspected fault (which will hopefully arrive tomorrow). Although I know there is a fault, being able to confirm the exact issue with evidence may speed up the process on their side.

Of course, getting the supplier to admit to the fault and pay for the costs is another issue and I get the sense that they still won't accept it even after providing evidence. That being the case, I will also get started on writing an LBA as recommended. Thanks again everyone, I'll keep you posted!

DavidP24

wealdroam wrote: »

All you have given here is a means to confirm that the thing is faulty.

We already know that - the OP has told us so.

What needs to be determined is that the problem is due to an inherent fault.
An inherent fault is one that was present at the time of the sale but not necessarily apparent at that time.

Proving that the hard disk is not performing correctly does nothing towards encouraging the seller to provide a remedy.
It does not confirm how the HD came to be in that state.

As said earlier, the OP doesn't need to prove anything - that is the responsibility of the seller.

OP, as suggested on post#10, get writing a letter before action.
There are many sample LBAs on the web.

The supplier has replied quite reasonably that they have not been provided with any evidence that the "computer" is faulty (as opposed to the operating system).

The OP does not want to bear the cost of return only to be told "we found not hardware fault, we did find that you installed the wrong drivers, windows update mess up, the machine was shut down during an updates etc etc, which are not our responsibility, the machine is therefore not faulty and we now in accordance with our terms will be charging you for our time and courier to return the item.

It is the same as when you complain to your ISP, they do everything at their end and offer to send an engineer but if the engineer finds it is a phone extension in the house you pay for the call out.

You never want to be too premature with a letter before action, Court is expensive, you want to ascertain you have a case first, anyway OP is preparing it.

It makes absolute sense to test the laptop, if it does indeed turn out to be a hardware problem then they are liable, but Windows is updated all the time via the web. Only this morning on my way out a neighbour could not access their laptop and was going to buy a new one, I had a look at it and the profile is corrupt, machine is fine.

There does not have to be an inherent fault, computers have to last for a reasonable period of time, all components in computers have a MTBF, this can be used to determine the reasonable life expectancy, along with the price paid. The electronics of the motherboard can develop a fault which is not inherent but would still require replacement under statutory rights.

It actually helps the OP to determine the actual fault because it may be cheaper to replace a component than pay a courier charge, the supplier could still be expected to pay for it but we all have a duty to mitigate loss. If it is a software or driver fault, I am sure they would rather resolve it with a download and avoid the grief of returning it.

unholyangel

DavidP24 wrote: »

There does not have to be an inherent fault, computers have to last for a reasonable period of time, all components in computers have a MTBF, this can be used to determine the reasonable life expectancy, along with the price paid. The electronics of the motherboard can develop a fault which is not inherent but would still require replacement under statutory rights.

What exactly do you think an inherent lack of conformity/fault is? What would cause an item to fail to conform to contract in a non-inherent way and still be covered by your statutory rights?

If a (for example) SSD fails due to poor soldering, that is inherent. If a computer fails because substandard components were used, that is inherent. Struggling to even think of one example of where the lack of conformity wouldn't be inherent but would be covered by statutory rights.