Refurbished Laptop Fault - Do I have any rights?

wealdroam

DavidP24 wrote: »

It makes absolute sense to test the laptop, if it does indeed turn out to be a hardware problem then they are liable...

Firstly, I'll concentrate on this bit if I may?

For the sake of argument let's assume that the laptop has been bounced down the stairs and, hey presto, no longer works.

It doesn't take much investigation to determine in this mythical scenario that there is a hardware problem - the severe shock has driven the read/write heads into the platters.

But you have told us that if there is a hardware problem then the seller is liable. That clearly is not the case with all hardware problems.

As I said earlier, the fault has to be inherent. I also explained what an inherent fault is.
I'll re-phrase it now...
A hardware error caused by misuse by the consumer clearly is not an inherent fault, therefore we can extrapolate that to say that "the seller is not always liable for hardware faults".
Again, it depends on how that 'hardware problem' came about - was it due to an inherent fault or not?

We should all know by now that it is the seller's responsibility during the first six months following a sale to either accept that the problem is due to an inherent fault or prove otherwise.
The seller must be given the opportunity to do that.

DavidP24 wrote: »

You never want to be too premature with a letter before action, Court is expensive...

Sending a LBA costs nothing - other that the cost of a stamp.
One never knows, but receiving an LBA can in itself encourage a seller to do the right thing.
Anyway, a Small Claims Court Action is not expensive.

DavidP24 wrote: »

The electronics of the motherboard can develop a fault which is not inherent but would still require replacement under statutory rights

I too am struggling with this bit.
Can you please give an example?

Leo2020

I can understand the logic of wanting to confirm a hardware fault because although this does not prove it is inherently faulty it does at least prove a fault opposed to a software problem.

But going out and buying a new HDD why bother?

The OP could have downloaded a bootable version of Linux to run off a USB key. If it really is the HDD then Linux would load fine from a USB key. There are also diagnostic software like MemTest86 which tests the RAM. I can understand running diagnostics. Some manufacturers, I know Dell is one, that have their own diagnostic tools built in. But I wouldn't go out buying parts just to test it.

DavidP24

We are talking about £3 for a 160gb drive, it can always used as a backup or portable drive if stuck into a £6 caddy.

DavidP24

unholyangel wrote: »

What exactly do you think an inherent lack of conformity/fault is? What would cause an item to fail to conform to contract in a non-inherent way and still be covered by your statutory rights?

If a (for example) SSD fails due to poor soldering, that is inherent. If a computer fails because substandard components were used, that is inherent. Struggling to even think of one example of where the lack of conformity wouldn't be inherent but would be covered by statutory rights.

I think you are over complicating things, any hardware fault that is diagnosed by diagnostic software or a computer professional will do.

No need to get hung up on inherent because the consumer does not have to prove the fault was present at the time of sale at all, faults develop, but 4 to 5 months in, not acceptable.

We talk about things lasting for a reasonable period of time, laptops last 10 years plus however, what is reasonable is going to be dependent on the price paid. If you pay £99 and get a basic laptop from Aldi you can't reasonable expect it to last 10 years, but if you pay £350 I would expect 3 to 5 years and if I bought a gaming beast for £2k I would expect the 10 years, albeit that the supplier might not, it would be my starting point.

If 2 years into that 5 years, the computer developed a hardware fault I would seek redress under the act, I would expect a repair, as it would be after the 6 months, it would be for me to produce the expert report and if it confirmed a defect then the supplier would pay for the report and carry out the repair. If they could not perform a repair they could replace the machine or issue a partial refund. The partial refund would be based on price paid. divided by say 60 months anticipated use, less 24 months use already had. The same goes for the replacement, if the spec were better than like for like, it would be reasonable for buyer to make a contribution for the 24 months to avoid betterment.

In this case because the fault "was discovered within first six months (but after the 30 days) it is presumed to have been there since the time of purchase - unless the retailer can prove otherwise.

During this time, it's up to the retailer to prove that the fault wasn't there when you bought it - it's not up to you to prove that it was."

Now who would trust a retailer that denies their liability and does not respect the law?

So it is important to gather evidence, run diagnostics, take photos of the machine before you send it back to prove no physical damage, (There was a mobile phone company that were damaging kit sent back to them in order that they can charge for it, they then alleged user had damaged item).



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Leo2020

DavidP24 wrote: »

We are talking about £3 for a 160gb drive, it can always used as a backup or portable drive if stuck into a £6 caddy.

But if they already have a USB key then it would be no cost. Plus it would be easier and quicker if they already have a USB key rather than waiting for delivery of HDD.

Had a quick look and can find second hand hard drives for that price. So what if it arrives dead has to be sent back.

Honestly just more faff your way around. Would have been easier to test without ever having to replace anything in it. There is always a chance that the seller might blame the OP saying they damaged the laptop when they install the new HDD.

I appreciate that laptops and PCs are upgradeable but under the circumstances I wouldn't be swapping anything just in case they tried to blame me for any faults.

DoaM

DavidP24 wrote: »

We are talking about £3 for a 160gb drive, it can always used as a backup or portable drive if stuck into a £6 caddy.

Is there a zero missing?

DavidP24

Well for me it is about isolating a fault, a USB key uses a different interface, the hard disk SATA controller in the laptop can only be tested by fitting another drive.

No zeros missing, these are cheapest sold items (you may need to resort by lowest first)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_nkw=160gb+2.5+hard&_sop=15


This one sold for £2.20

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hitachi-2-5-034-Hard-Drive-HTS543216L9SA02-160GB-/222428028850?hash=item33c9be5fb2%3Ag%3Af0gAAOSwax5YuWYI&nma=true&si=%252FOtjvEDGCi85KaQp9AtJJcjuP%252FA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

DavidP24

OP is meanwhile testing with surface scan read only test from a boot CD

I am confident we will get to bottom of the problem

Leo2020

No you can't test the controller but then that is unlikely to be the fault. I think you can gone too far into this. And by fitting a second hand drive that lets say doesn't work would the OP know that it was another dudd HDD or the controller? Does the OP have a way of confirming with a working PC that the HDD does work?

The OP really shouldn't be going down this route this is what PC engineers are for. Unless the OP understands what they are doing they could diagnose a fault that doesn't exist. Even if they do prove that the HDD is at fault or another hardware issue we are still back to proving that it is inherent and not something the OP has done.

Basic diagnostics yes anything more is a waste of time unless the OP plans on repairing it themselves and no longer making a claim through the seller. Remember that the OP is not impartial and not an expert if I was the retailer I wouldn't believe any fault without seeing it for myself or receiving evidence from an independent person. Plus it is up to the seller to prove its not inherent if they believe it isn't.

DavidP24

Leo2020 wrote: »

No you can't test the controller but then that is unlikely to be the fault.

We CAN test the controller, I regularly have to give customers data and I regularly buy such hard disks and thus far they always work, I do not buy the ones marked faulty spares or repairs.

I do agree it is unlikely to be the controller or even the disk, but engineering is about ruling out one thing at a time, the OP reports that MS (if it was them) suggested it was SSD. So it is where we are starting.

Leo2020 wrote: »

I think you can gone too far into this. And by fitting a second hand drive that lets say doesn't work would the OP know that it was another dudd HDD or the controller? Does the OP have a way of confirming with a working PC that the HDD does work?

He can connect said hard disk to a £3 to £7 external Disk enclosure which connects via USB.

Leo2020 wrote: »

The OP really shouldn't be going down this route this is what PC engineers are for. Unless the OP understands what they are doing they could diagnose a fault that doesn't exist. Even if they do prove that the HDD is at fault or another hardware issue we are still back to proving that it is inherent and not something the OP has done.

The OP is being supported to diagnose the fault, they have already proved themselves pretty competent actually.

Try reading the consumer act or my post above, in the first six months it is presumed to be inherent and up to the retailer to PROVE otherwise.

Leo2020 wrote: »

Basic diagnostics yes anything more is a waste of time unless the OP plans on repairing it themselves and no longer making a claim through the seller. Remember that the OP is not impartial and not an expert if I was the retailer I wouldn't believe any fault without seeing it for myself or receiving evidence from an independent person. Plus it is up to the seller to prove its not inherent if they believe it isn't.

No not a waste of time, if we determine it is a hardware fault it will help the supplier do their own tests and confirm before they replace the faulty component, under consumer rights.

If we determine it is a software problem (OS, Drivers, Apps etc) we will fix that and of course there will be no claim.