Cowboy Builder doing work without contract

Hoploz

If you accepted the quote of £20k and he started doing the work, I think you should pay the £20k total (in whatever instalments were agreed) and let him get on with it.

Annie1960

another_casualty wrote: »

The payments so far were via bank transfer. Requests were done via email and text . No paperwork.

In the modern world, email and texts are paperwork.

Doozergirl

In all honesty, you sound like the kind of customer that no tradesperson would willingly choose to deal with. I pro-actively try to avoid quoting for anyone likely to behave like this. £20k is not an unreasonable figure to come to for supply and fit of a kitchen and bathroom. It sounds fairly average. Renovation is also and art, not a science; it relies quite a bit on swings and roundabouts. It also relies heavily on *mutual* trust.

If you don't think think £5k was worth two weeks of two men's time, how do you value 4 weeks of two men's time?

I don't think 2 weeks is enough for a kitchen and bathroom fit for two men, but neither is £5k in labour. When you are sitting there with your excel spreadsheet, you forget to put any value on the experience needed to know what the right materials are or the time spent buying these items, or providing a guarantee to come back and provide the labour for free to rectify potentially faulty items, or indeed any margin for error at all. There has to be contingency and there need to be a margin. I don't price up an exact bag of grout when I'm pricing a project. You are manufacturing 'cost' in your favour. Have you also re-evaluated their extra time now spent in their favour?

If you agree a price and how materials are supplied, you should stick to it. Theres nothing there that makes him sound like a cowboy. He sounds like a fallible human trying to make a living and you sound like someone who is desperate to find fault.

I'm not sure why some people feel that the building trade should work differently to any other when it comes to working with a margin. Nor do I see how you can be entitled to knock the price down, waste people's energy and then get upset when they effectively do the same to you.

You are as responsible for not having a contract as he is and I suspect he will be regretting it more than you. You know exactly how much it was supposed to cost you. Any messages with the offer price and acceptance form a contract between the two of you.

stator

You might come to an agreement about outstanding payments and finishing schedules and you might put this on a piece of paper and both sign it.
It's a bit late to be renegotiating the prices.
If you agreed a lump sum price for the work you'll have to pay it, regardless of wanting receipts. If you wanted to pay materials + labour you should have sorted that before work began.

gecko19

Hello All,

Thanks for the responses. I think one point I need to clarify a bit more is that he did provide a breakdown of costs for the materials before he started work.

So going back to my original question , if before work started he quoted me 2k for bathroom suite materials and then put down a 800£ suite(+200£ margin = 1000£), should I still pay him 2000£ - isn't that treading on the lines of misrepresentation - saying one thing and supplying something much inferior - is that not a contract breakage?
If the cheap stuff he has used breaks down, am I not the one in trouble?
I worked out the actual cost of the items by checking the boxes in which the items got delivered home.

Electrics/plumbing has not been done at all - all this was done 2 years ago by the first builder.

Cowboy builder because he fitted a gas hob without being gas safe certified and then allowed me to use it - I off course had to ask him for the gas safe certificate and his gas safe status to finally decide that it is not safe to use. Also , a leak in the toilet is yet to be fixed after two attempts. third time round, i removed the pan and hand measured pan connector gradient to tell him the cause of the leak and the fix.

Thanks,
G.

Doozergirl

You cannot replace a bathroom without doing any plumbing.

Did you agree what suite you were having before it went in? It's the most important part!
It is not a breach of contract unless you both specified exactly what was going in and what is there is different. Otherwise, he's charging you £2,000 for a suite, regardless of what it cost him or its quality.

Your time should have been spent on due diligence before you hired him instead of demanding receipts, sneaking prices off the internet and disconnecting the toilet. Did you obtain other quotes? How did you know you were comparing like with like? See his work beforehand? Presumably if you don't like a 2 year old bathroom, you would be expecting a high quality provider with better prep work.

You're in a very weak position. Price agreed is price agreed. The cost of the suite is less, the price of labour should be more. If you think you can renegotiate to push the agreed price down on one thing, by the same token, he can raise it via another.

As it stands, mistakes need to be rectified.

Annie1960

gecko19 wrote: »

Cowboy builder because he fitted a gas hob without being gas safe certified and then allowed me to use it - I off course had to ask him for the gas safe certificate and his gas safe status to finally decide that it is not safe to use.
G.

This is a different matter entirely. It is a criminal offence for someone who is not Gas Safe registered to fit a gas appliance.

gecko19

Annie1960 wrote: »

This is a different matter entirely. It is a criminal offence for someone who is not Gas Safe registered to fit a gas appliance.

Yes. Agreed. Now the point is if I don't withhold his cash, I have no way of getting my hob sorted. Same is the case with the electrical work, I have had to go through the electrician's handbook to tell him what he can extend to make a ring etc. Worst part is my previous builder had left a ring in place in the kitchen for use when the electrical work in the house was being re-done. This guy came and cut all the wiring out and now as per regulation he cannot make a socket with the remainder of the cable - the height of the socket would be unreachable for most appliances.Surely , this cant be part of his "art".

Anyways maybe because of these issues and possible consequences if the matter did land in court, he has agreed for a reduced sum for materials and signed a contract. He has agreed to put right all that I have said is wrong and hopefully I get it done the way I want it done and he gets what is due to him and we move on.

Just checked on some legal advice from a friend who is a solicitor, if a builder quotes 2k for a bathroom suite and then fits in an 800£ suite and charges 2k for the same, they are then not acting in good-faith (as a person skilled in the art and with forehand knowledge of costs)and hence a court could decide that the contract was not upheld as expected - obviously , the court (if it lands in that situation) would need to see the actual receipts which our builder claims not to have and then decide if they acted in good faith when they claimed 120% .

I once had a guy who skimmed a room for 350£, he did the work and took all the cash. He left his ladder and extension cord in my house and a day later called to get it back. I was away for two days and asked him to come when I was back - he never came to collect his things - the reason? when the plaster dried there were areas which were not level and some places where he had applied almost set plaster making the wall lumpy, obviously this could not be seen when the plaster was wet. When I called him about it, he would not take my call and his stuff remains in my house even today.

My first builder was paid all his cash and I was happy,however when there were leaks because of shoddy workmanship, he took a month to come back and by then my kitchen ceiling had warped by the damp which he then refused to fix.

If I am being critical of the work and materials, I have found from history, that it is in my best interest to do so and not to settle fully till cash till all is to my satisfaction. I would rather "fix" issues now than wait for things fall apart and then take the guy to court.

Thanks for all your help,
G.

gecko19

Doozergirl wrote: »

You cannot replace a bathroom without doing any plumbing.

Did you agree what suite you were having before it went in? It's the most important part!
It is not a breach of contract unless you both specified exactly what was going in and what is there is different. Otherwise, he's charging you £2,000 for a suite, regardless of what it cost him or its quality.

Your time should have been spent on due diligence before you hired him instead of demanding receipts, sneaking prices off the internet and disconnecting the toilet. Did you obtain other quotes? How did you know you were comparing like with like? See his work beforehand? Presumably if you don't like a 2 year old bathroom, you would be expecting a high quality provider with better prep work.

You're in a very weak position. Price agreed is price agreed. The cost of the suite is less, the price of labour should be more. If you think you can renegotiate to push the agreed price down on one thing, by the same token, he can raise it via another.

As it stands, mistakes need to be rectified.

Hello Doozergirl,

Thanks for your response. I have got it sorted from him now. The 2k bathroom suite had many components , of which he has reused 2 of our preexisting fixtures - extractor,radiator towel rail etc. He has not put in some things which he said he would put in ,eg: bath mixer taps ( since the bath he bought does not have a mixer hole, I thought he would put a wall mounter bath mixer which he hasnt, which now needs pulling off of the tiles) ,concealed shower plumbing unit ,L Shaped bath etc. This is just one example.

Add to this , the fact that getting the items had delays of 1+ week when I could have got it delivered next day or picked it up myself - his surcharge would have been good if he got cracking with the job instead of doing other work elsewhere and then turning up at home 2 hours before I return(I get CCTV alerts). His work picked up steam 2 weeks ago , exactly after the time he agreed to contractually was finished.

Aylesbury_Duck

gecko19 wrote: »

Just checked on some legal advice from a friend who is a solicitor, if a builder quotes 2k for a bathroom suite and then fits in an 800£ suite and charges 2k for the same, they are then not acting in good-faith (as a person skilled in the art and with forehand knowledge of costs)and hence a court could decide that the contract was not upheld as expected - obviously , the court (if it lands in that situation) would need to see the actual receipts which our builder claims not to have and then decide if they acted in good faith when they claimed 120%

You really should have checked all this and agreed everything before work started. Your view on what constitutes a reasonable labour rate is misguided, and you're trying to force a reduction through by bargain-hunting after work has begun. Your maths is all over the place too, so I would be very careful and check your arithmetic before going any further. How do you calculate that charging £2,000 for a £800 suite is "claiming 120%"?