Sexual harassment in the workplace

hyubh

Undervalued wrote: »

Whilst that wouldn't excuse his behaviour it may well mitigate it.

Or maybe she is as saintly as Mother Teresa?

What an absurd comparison - a woman doesn't have to be 'saintly' to deserve the same personal space afforded to a man.

Who knows?

Who knows indeed. Although, you do seem really keen to defend small-time perverts - six posts in a two-page thread, and counting.

xapprenticex

Undervalued wrote: »

Exactly.

For all we know it is perfectly possible this lady had been winding the young man up for weeks with one sexual innuendo after another.

Whilst that wouldn't excuse his behaviour it may well mitigate it.

Or maybe she is as saintly as Mother Teresa?

The OP describes himself as a "friend" of the lady so it is most unlikely we are being given an impartial account of both sides of the story.

Who knows?

Exactly :money:, we only have one side of the coin here, I'm sure the 'male' had something to say too, probably why he still has his job, but as said many times, unwanted slapping of bums or any kind of slapping of bums at work isn't something you do, hence he was dealt with.

Ryan_F_2

OP here. Cheers to everyone who has provided a response, both pro and con. Even if I don't necessarily agree with everyone here, it's food for thought and has certainly sparked a lively debate.

Some further background (let's call the alleged spanker Mr X and the victim Miss Y).

Some time prior to the spank, Miss Y had a day off sick. Whilst off, Mr X (her department head), texted her with the message "I don't care what's wrong with you, you'd better come in tomorrow whether you're ill or not."

In Feb, Miss Y began dating a new boyfriend, she let slip in the office that she had slept with him on the first date. Mr X (her department head, let's not forget), pulled her into a private meeting in the boardroom, asking whether her bedroom antics were "appropriate", like it's any of his business.

He told another colleague, Miss Z, that she had "nice tits".

He told a third colleague, Miss W, that she was a "!!!!!" (at a loud enough volume that it could be heard across the office). EDIT: the word I typed was blanked out by this site's auto censor and replaced with exclamation marks. Let's paraphrase: it starts with p and describes someone who is attracted to children.

All these incidents were reported during the investigation; admittedly I have not heard Mr X's side of things so there may be some mitigating circumstances that I am not aware of.

Anyway, after a period of suspension, Mr X is back at work. He's had a final warning, which will stay on his record for a year; any further indiscretions, no matter how trivial, will result in instant dismissal. He's not allowed in the same room alone with any female colleague.

In reality, he's become the office pariah, with people refusing to speak to him (except when absolutely necessary to do their jobs). Most are merely blanking him; at least three people have emailed him to tell him what they think of him. That he's now a virtual outcast could be considered punishment enough, but the office - once a vibrant and friendly place to work - is now clouded in a lot of 'atmosphere'. Plus of course, Miss X has to see him every day, which is no fun for her.

I've probably said too much here (my user name isn't exactly pseudonymous and the events I've described are hardly commonplace), but I do read all the replies and will clarify stuff when I can.

Kynthia

Undervalued wrote: »

Exactly.

For all we know it is perfectly possible this lady had been winding the young man up for weeks with one sexual innuendo after another.

Whilst that wouldn't excuse his behaviour it may well mitigate it.

Or maybe she is as saintly as Mother Teresa?

The OP describes himself as a "friend" of the lady so it is most unlikely we are being given an impartial account of both sides of the story.

Who knows?

So she may have been asking for it??? Lovely views you have there, that women can be responsible for the actions of the men that abuse them. By that logic he should get a less severe punishment for sexually assaulting her if she was wearing a short skirt! What other crimes give you a lower sentence if the victim 'was asking for it' even though they weren't doing anything illegal?

lush_walrus

Ryan_F wrote: »

OP here. Cheers to everyone who has provided a response, both pro and con. Even if I don't necessarily agree with everyone here, it's food for thought and has certainly sparked a lively debate.

Some further background (let's call the alleged spanker Mr X and the victim Miss Y).

Some time prior to the spank, Miss Y had a day off sick. Whilst off, Mr X (her department head), texted her with the message "I don't care what's wrong with you, you'd better come in tomorrow whether you're ill or not."

In Feb, Miss Y began dating a new boyfriend, she let slip in the office that she had slept with him on the first date. Mr X (her department head, let's not forget), pulled her into a private meeting in the boardroom, asking whether her bedroom antics were "appropriate", like it's any of his business.

He told another colleague, Miss Z, that she had "nice tits".

He told a third colleague, Miss W, that she was a "!!!!!" (at a loud enough volume that it could be heard across the office). EDIT: the word I typed was blanked out by this site's auto censor and replaced with exclamation marks. Let's paraphrase: it starts with p and describes someone who is attracted to children.

All these incidents were reported during the investigation; admittedly I have not heard Mr X's side of things so there may be some mitigating circumstances that I am not aware of.

Anyway, after a period of suspension, Mr X is back at work. He's had a final warning, which will stay on his record for a year; any further indiscretions, no matter how trivial, will result in instant dismissal. He's not allowed in the same room alone with any female colleague.

In reality, he's become the office pariah, with people refusing to speak to him (except when absolutely necessary to do their jobs). Most are merely blanking him; at least three people have emailed him to tell him what they think of him. That he's now a virtual outcast could be considered punishment enough, but the office - once a vibrant and friendly place to work - is now clouded in a lot of 'atmosphere'. Plus of course, Miss X has to see him every day, which is no fun for her.

I've probably said too much here (my user name isn't exactly pseudonymous and the events I've described are hardly commonplace), but I do read all the replies and will clarify stuff when I can.

Wow what an unprofessional environment of work. Sounds like bum slapping is the tip of the iceberg! I assume it's an industry where most are under 20, a call centre or something similar?

None of the behaviour you have described is acceptable, far too familiar in all behaviours. No wonder the employer has not dismissed one person, frankly I would dismiss quite a few from your description.

For you I would advise finding new employment, resist getting involved and certainly do not email anyone with your thoughts on this person or any other. This constitutes bullying and can lead to instant dismissal.

We monitor emails sent on our computers to prevent exactly this, we are not unusual. A couple of years back we dismissed one of our employees for name calling within emails, it is negative for business and constitutes bullying.

Stay well away from all of this, and find other employment. As you rightly say the behaviour of your colleagues is not the norm.

Leo2020

Undervalued wrote: »

Exactly.

For all we know it is perfectly possible this lady had been winding the young man up for weeks with one sexual innuendo after another.

Whilst that wouldn't excuse his behaviour it may well mitigate it.

Or maybe she is as saintly as Mother Teresa?

The OP describes himself as a "friend" of the lady so it is most unlikely we are being given an impartial account of both sides of the story.

Who knows?

A disturbing but sadly common point of view, she might have been asking for it in other words.

I'm trying to imagine in what work situation (unless we are talking !!!!!! star, sex industry, etc) where a slap on the bum would be appropriate. Sorry can't think of any even if she was dropping innuendos. My husband and I met at work he never slapped my bum in front of everyone in the office even though we were in a relationship. There are somethings you don't do at work even when you are in a consensual relationship. This man and woman were not together.

I too would also feel very uncomfortable in this situation. Let's say it was an honest mistake and he is not a sex pest she does not know that. I would be worried that he might try something else. I would not want to be on my own with him. I would not feel comfortable walking to say my car or bus with him walking behind me.

Perhaps it his hard for men to understand. Women are generally physically weaker than men. I know if a man wanted to assault me then I would struggle to fend him off. And that is what would scare me knowing that if he did try something then I he would probably be able to do what ever it is he wanted.

You also have to understand than many women have experienced sexual violence although many never talk about it never mind report it. Also many women suffer physical violence at the hands of men. Sexual and physical violence towards women is a very real problem.

Chances are there is a least one women in that office who has been assaulted by a man previously. You can say that his not this man's fault but perhaps you could understand how that woman might feel having to work with someone who clearly does not respect women.

Undervalued

Kynthia wrote: »

So she may have been asking for it??? Lovely views you have there, that women can be responsible for the actions of the men that abuse them. By that logic he should get a less severe punishment for sexually assaulting her if she was wearing a short skirt! What other crimes give you a lower sentence if the victim 'was asking for it' even though they weren't doing anything illegal?

No, that isn't what I said at all. Perhaps you would like to re-read my posts in this thread!

The point I have been making, with which many other posters seemed to agree, is that all we have is a one sided third party account of what allegedly happened from a "friend" of the lady concerned.

Obviously the behaviour described is wrong, I don't think anybody is disputing that. However, if it was a misjudged extension of previous chemistry and friendly banter between the two it is very different to some of the other scenarios. All I said was the background may mitigate the seriousness of the matter, not that it excused it.

The employer, who has heard both sides of the story and knows something of the background and character of the people involved, has taken disciplinary action albeit not a severe as the OP would like.

My view is that should be respected as anyone commenting here, me included, does not know the full story.

Ryan_F_2

lush_walrus wrote: »

Wow what an unprofessional environment of work. Sounds like bum slapping is the tip of the iceberg! I assume it's an industry where most are under 20, a call centre or something similar?

None of the behaviour you have described is acceptable, far too familiar in all behaviours. No wonder the employer has not dismissed one person, frankly I would dismiss quite a few from your description.

Just to clarify, there's no general culture of bullying or harassment here, it's just a solitary offender, the so-called Mr X, who has since been punished. He is late-thirties. Ages in the office range from 20-65, and most people in the office are lovely. The industry we work in is traditionally male-dominated, so the male to female ratio is skewed roughly 5:1.

lush_walrus wrote: »

For you I would advise finding new employment, resist getting involved and certainly do not email anyone with your thoughts on this person or any other. This constitutes bullying and can lead to instant dismissal.

We monitor emails sent on our computers to prevent exactly this, we are not unusual. A couple of years back we dismissed one of our employees for name calling within emails, it is negative for business and constitutes bullying.

Stay well away from all of this, and find other employment. As you rightly say the behaviour of your colleagues is not the norm.

I've been at this company for 17 years, and many of my workmates are dear friends. I love my job, am reasonably well imbursed, and the office is a five minute drive from my house. Whilst I am personally narked that Mr X did not lose his job over this, my outrage is not so severe that I would be willing to shake up my entire life like that.

Fireflyaway

Sounds to me that Mr x can't control himself, so based on his previous behaviour I'd say he will most likely do something silly again and hopefully get sacked. On a positive, it sounds as though many people are wary of him, dislike what he had done / the way he is and are rightly making it known. This hopefully will mean should he do anything, the victim will be confident enough to report him immediately.
As for you, I'd say don't cause any undue fuss. It could backfire and leave you facing allegations of bullying or something else. He sounds like the type who would try to intimidate people. However do as you probably would and back up victims of any future bad behaviour if you witness it.

Tiddlywinks

Cor - there's a bit of hyperbole and over-reaction from some posters on this thread.

Pervert? Sex pest? Mis-understanding and mis-representing other posters by implying they were saying 'she asked for it'?

Bottom line (excuse the pun) the company investigated and the outcome is such that the chap is still employed. Move on, nothing to see here.

The 'victim' is lucky to not be on the receiving end of a disciplinary as well. Talking about having sex with her new BF on the first date was not an appropriate, acceptable or professional discussion in a work environment. No wonder her manager took her to one side to have a word.

In discussing her sex life openly in the office she sexualised herself to her colleagues... still not acceptable to receive the uninvited attention BUT not quite the innocent herself is she?

It's done and dusted now. The outcome of the investigation shouldn't even be common knowledge let alone discussed at length on an internet forum.

Mr X has been disciplined, time to move on and butt out.