Dismissal for gross misconduct- advice needed

marliepanda

ThemeOne wrote: »

Have they actually shown you the bills? If so, not sure there's much you can do. Not that I share the moral outrage of some of the posters above.

The bill is irrelevant.

He was making personal phone calls on company property and without permission. Doesn't matter if they were free or £1mil

marliepanda

Simpleton1 wrote: »

Thanks for the responses. Appreciate them all.

The calls were made out of hours. I knew that my calls were from my own line and would show up on my call log and made no attempt to hide that.

At a minimum I spend 9 hours solid working every day. I wouldn't mind repaying the company. Just wished I had a warning before it got to this.

Would it not have made sense to ask?

It makes NO sense to simply assume it would be okay because it was in a previous job in an unrelated company.

steampowered

Simply using a work phone to make a personal call once or twice is not enough for gross misconduct.

What might make this gross misconduct is the amount involved. £3,200 is an enormous amount. But if you had offered to repay immediately - and you honestly thought the calls were free - then I think you can challenge this.

Maybe not enough to win but certainly enough to make it worth appealing.

To give you the background, there is a massive difference between gross misconduct and general misconduct. Demonstrating that someone could not be dismissed for gross misconduct - even if he could have been dismissed for regular misconduct if the employer had given notice and followed the proper procedure for regular (not gross) dismissals - is one of the easiest ways to win an unfair dismissal claim.

The word "gross" has a particular legal meaning. That is easy to forget for people that aren't close to employment law. The Tribunals say that gross misconduct requires deliberate wrongdoing or gross negligence. Carelessness is not enough. Incompetence is not enough. I suggest that anyone who wants to verify this for themselves reads what the Employment Appeal Tribunal had to say in the most cited judgment on this, here, scroll to paragraph 111.

sjbrun

How did you offer to pay back the money you spent without permission?

parking_question_chap

marliepanda wrote: »

The bill is irrelevant.

He was making personal phone calls on company property and without permission. Doesn't matter if they were free or £1mil

So you are effectively saying that a 1 minute call to a local number would also have constiture gross misconduct.

OP, gross misconduct would likely be defined on a company policy, I think its likely that running up £3200 worth of phone bills will be covered under the definitions in some shape or form.

elsien

steampowered wrote: »

Simply using a work phone to make a personal call once or twice is not enough for gross misconduct.

What might make this gross misconduct is the amount involved. £3,200 is an enormous amount. But if you had offered to repay immediately - and you honestly thought the calls were free - then I think you can challenge this.

Maybe not enough to win but certainly enough to make it worth appealing.

To give you and other posters the background, there is a massive difference between gross misconduct and general misconduct. Demonstrating that someone could not be dismissed for gross misconduct - even if he could have been dismissed for regular misconduct if the employer had given notice and followed a longer procedure - is one of the easiest ways to win an unfair dismissal claim.

The word "gross" has a particular legal meaning. That is easy to forget for people that aren't close to employment law. The Tribunals say that gross misconduct requires deliberate wrongdoing or gross negligence. Carelessness is not enough. Incompetence is not enough. I suggest that anyone who wants to verify this for themselves reads what the Employment Appeal Tribunal had to say in the most cited judgment on this, here, scroll to paragraph 111.

Do you not think there's a little bit of difference between a quick local personal call and regular international calls? Presumably of some length given the call charges?

steampowered

elsien wrote: »

Do you not think there's a little bit of difference between a quick local personal call and regular international calls? Presumably of some length given the call charges?

Yes, I do. Hence the sentence in my post which reads "What might make this gross misconduct is the amount involved. £3,200 is an enormous amount."

If the employee had no idea how expensive these calls were - and offered to repay the money as soon as he was informed - that to me would make the "gross misconduct" point enough of a grey area to justify putting in an appeal.

Whether the appeal is successful or not is another question ...

Simpleton1

marliepanda wrote: »

Would it not have made sense to ask?

It makes NO sense to simply assume it would be okay because it was in a previous job in an unrelated company.

Perhaps it would have been, in hindsight.

If you search on the net you will find telecoms companies offering unlimited call packages for a monthly fee. At my previous employers this was the case too. I had thought this was normal for big companies with massive buying power.

Not that it justifies, but I used my personal mobile to make business calls because I had inclusive minutes and so thought of saving the company money, This was despite being entitled to a company mobile phone. They didn't consider this.

daytona0

How does voip work like?

I can 'ring' someone in Australia using an app and that's free to do, much like whatsapp I imagine? (you can do it on FB).

But how would it work with a company? Do they pay the voip provider per connected call? Or set fee?

And would also be interesting to see if the contract states anything about being able to make personal calls using company equipment.

I can kind of see where someone may be ignorant of any cost incurred, but alas I must concede that OP is a bit of a tool for not reading their contract and/or ASKING FOR PERMISSION beforehand.

There's a fair chance that OP has cost the employer money, on top of the wasted manpower whilst making the calls, but it is hard to put a definitive amount on it without knowing the ins and outs.

Ignorant and stupid at best, a fraudster at worst.

ThemeOne

marliepanda wrote: »

The bill is irrelevant.

He was making personal phone calls on company property and without permission. Doesn't matter if they were free or £1mil

The bills would be evidence of the alleged financial loss which is for rather a large amount.

I have no idea whether the bills are legally relevant but I would be very suspicious in the OP's shoes if the employer is not able to produce them.