The election that might make a difference and is too close to call thread - France

vivatifosi

gfplux wrote: »

Tonight, Wednesday, Macron and Le Pen head to head debate on TV. Starting in five minutes.

Thanks gfplux. Watching it now. France24 UK is showing it live, with English over-dub. Lots of talking over each other. I'm finding it a little odd though hearing Marine Le Pen dubbed by a man, and the Macron person has a very english voice, a bit like someone in Yes Minister.

vivatifosi

Hmmm.... I don't know enough about France and what's important to France to know who is winning this. Especially when they start talking about payments for teeth and glasses.

I have found it very adversarial, and possibly not very well moderated. They guy on the let just seems to be sitting there and leaving the modding all up to the woman.

Both have made good arguments on different things.

Now she is accusing Macron of being blackmailed... which all feels a bit Trumpish.

ETA... and now he is saying that she is promoting Civil War.

There is certainly no "I agree with Nick"...

ETA.... interesting line of questioning.... Le Pen is showing an article saying that without greater federalism the Euro will be dead in 10 years, written by Macron.

She is talking about returning to the Franc but keeping the Euro like the ECU as a trading unit for large companies to trade in if they want to.

She's now talking about Brexit. How everyone said that the UK would collapse, but the opposite is happening. He's saying "ah, but the UK has never been part of the Euro".

He's saying she manipulates fear... of terrorism, etc. The UK has nothing to do with the Euro. France's withdrawal from the Euro would be a mortal failure. That his vision is of a powerful Europe with France a key part.

Him to her... you're dictating to all the other 19 countries what will happen to their currency. Her to him... no, each country has to decide what is right for their currency. Him... the reality is that we are part of the Eurozone, whether we like it or not.

Macron: We are a market of 60m and have to protect ourselves against Russian and Chinese who have much larger populations/potential for internal markets.

Le Pen: You've failed to deliver on this for the past 20 years (actually she's made this point quite a lot - painting him as the "insider".
He repeatedly says that he's only been in his post for a short while and that she cannot blame him for 20 years.

They are arguing now about France vs Germany.

vivatifosi

Ok, have watched the last half an hour only intermittently. They are now being asked to wrap up by talking directly to the French nation on a topic of their choice.

MACRON:
We've talked about lots of subjects, but I'd like to say a word on our overseas territories, which are important to the French economy.
I'd also like to say about disabled people. The law that Mrs Le Pen wants to repeal does have pragmatic solutions for disabled people. This law is for each company to have someone in it to help disabled people to have a normal working life. I will keep this. I want all disabled people to have pragmatic solutions. I would give them (more money). I don't want disabled people to be without solution. I'd create jobs in the system to help disabled people and autistic children. I'd find concrete solutions to support disabled people in companies. That would be a priority of my mandate.

LE PEN: If you are so attached to disabilities you should look at our project which takes account of all the issues... tax rebate for child with disabilities. Law of 2005 not taken on by any party - certainly not yours. These things should have been done for years.
There's funding for mass immigration... for illegals... but we should do things for people like those with autism and one in three French people cannot afford healthcare.
We haven't discussed immigration.
I have no chosen topic - the France you support isn't France. It is a trading room. French employees have to defend their jobs against those from elsewhere. This is not my vision. I believe in solidarity, in nation, our hope that is the hope of being able to continue in conditions that are respectful and to trade with other countries. France was thrown into chaos by your friends that are supporting you in this political campaign.

MACRON: We say no to what you are. Your tactic is to dirty the reputation of your adversary and you lie. You have no project for the country except to say "that person is dirty". It is exploiting, lying. Like your father. I don't want that for my country, my France is worth more than that. You are the co-product. You are a parasite, you live off it. I can see the anger of my fellow citizens. I want to bring real policies of reform that have not been implemented for 30 years.

I believe in a bottom up construction with popular initiatives to support the country and the system. In five years, if I'm elected, I'll fight against the division. I'm worried about the state of our country. You have no project, our fellow citizens can see it. So I want a renewal of france. A new face for our country, not an extreme right country, with policies that have never been implemented.

Very simply I want to reconcile France, the opposite of what you want to do.

Last wrap up... two minutes each:

LE PEN: well objectively people will see tonight what Macron's project is. I may be old fashioned but I like France as it is... with its heritage and culture...with its borders. If there are no borders there is no free and independent country. With its people that deserve to be better treated than sent into a Fratricidal war where people will keep the profits. You want to throw them to the four winds. You want to close factories, police stations, maternity wards... the only thing you don't want to close is the border. You want france to be open to mass immigration... downward pressure on wages. You are in the hands of Algeria... this is the opposite of the union of France and the French people. Weakening our country to support the financial powers at your side.

MACRON: Le Pen has used her entire conclusion to lie about my vision without saying anything about what she will do for the country. France deserves better. France is going through a deep crisis of failure of policies over 20 years. Some people exploit this anger. I've listened to this, I want to answer with courage to keep our commitments fully. To maintain the french language and culture. Our country has always been strong in Europe. Not open to the four winds. We will have trained our fellow citizens. Real reforms, real changes, not the hatred of the FN. We have always been a fair and open country.

wotsthat

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

I said earlier in the thread that sadly this has become a lose/lose choice for France.

Macron is a win for France in that he isn't Le Pen. Sometimes you have to look for the positive. Who'd abstain because one of the candidates is a liberal when the alternative is a fascist? I like contemplating my navel as much as the next vote spoiler but hopefully reality will bite.

fatbeetle

wotsthat wrote: »

Who'd abstain because one of the candidates is a liberal when the alternative is a fascist?

Le Pen isn't a fascist, she's a nationalist.

wotsthat

fatbeetle wrote: »

Le Pen isn't a fascist, she's a nationalist.

Potato. Potato.

michaels

Thanks Viva for the blogging

gfplux

fatbeetle wrote: »

Le Pen isn't a fascist, she's a nationalist.

She is a fascist, a daughter of a Fascist.
In this campaign she has emphasised the Marine and tried to drop the Le Pen.
Although a Fascist she is trying to modify her message so it will appeal to a wider audience.
Hitler was a Nationalist.

gfplux

It would appear Macron did better than Le Pen or so the BBC reports.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39801315
"French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron was more impressive than rival Marine Le Pen in Wednesday evening's final TV debate, a viewers' poll says.
The candidates traded insults for more than two hours, arguing over terrorism, the economy, and Europe.
The French broadcaster BFMTV found voters had a more favourable view of Mr Macron than Ms Le Pen in most categories.
He was the "most convincing" of the pair in the opinion of 63% of viewers."

It was a brutal debate. Gloves off and trading insults (punches)
Totally unlike the two faced debate Britain will not be seeing.

A_Pict_In_A_Past_Life

Despite Macron supposedly doing better than Le Pen it looks like Macron support is decreasing and Le Pen support increasing.
Only slightly and the probability is (still) that Macron will win.


TBH we've had enough of what are little more than slanging matches like last night's Macron/Le Pen debate haven't we?
During the referendum for example.
I can't say I blame May for not wanting to be involved in another one because I for one really don't want to see more, especially when our presenters do all they can to steer these "debates" whichever way they want.
It ends up like watching Jeremy Kyle or Judge whatsisname - scripted and biased rubbish.