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the snap general election thread

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  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 5 May 2017 at 6:28PM
    wotsthat wrote: »
    Blair/ Brown were helped by the Tories being in total disarray. Yet here we are with the roles reversed. Nothing's forever.

    Not entirely. NU Labour was a concept to appeal to middle England. Distance the Labour party from the image of Union control. Planning took many years. They didn't suddenly materialise. All for nothing. As the party has slipped back into oblivion. The old staunch Labourites are no longer working class. Reckon many will simply vote LD in protest and frustration at the GE.
  • wotsthat
    wotsthat Posts: 11,325 Forumite
    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    Not entirely. NU Labour was a concept to appeal to middle England. Distance the Labour party from the image of Union control. Planning took many years. They didn't suddenly materialise. All for nothing. As the party has slipped back into oblivion. The old staunch Labourites are no longer working class. Reckon many will simply vote LD in protest and frustration at the GE.

    Labour in their current guise are toast and the Tories are going to win the next GE.

    In another election or two the Tories will lose. Maybe a more centrist Labour party will win - maybe it'll be a party we haven't heard of yet but it's going to happen because that's the way of the world.
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    wotsthat wrote: »
    Labour in their current guise are toast and the Tories are going to win the next GE....

    The Conservatives have made the biggest gains by a governing party in a local election for more than 40 years.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39810488

    Unless something very exciting happens in the next five weeks, it's gonna be a Con landslide on 8th June. Labour are truly fubared.
    wotsthat wrote: »
    ...In another election or two the Tories will lose. Maybe a more centrist Labour party will win - maybe it'll be a party we haven't heard of yet but it's going to happen because that's the way of the world.

    Probably more like three or four.

    The problem might well be that Labour get so stuffed that there will be enough Corbynista MPs left standing in those city enclaves to nominate (say) McDonnell, and all those £3 members (or whatever they have these days) will put him in charge. So it will be the same old except with someone slightly less dippy in charge.
  • BobQ
    BobQ Posts: 11,181 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    wotsthat wrote: »
    Labour in their current guise are toast and the Tories are going to win the next GE.

    In another election or two the Tories will lose. Maybe a more centrist Labour party will win - maybe it'll be a party we haven't heard of yet but it's going to happen because that's the way of the world.

    When Labour was in the wilderness during the 1990s they had a credible shadow cabinet with people like Jack Cunningham, Jack Straw, Ann Taylor, Donald Dewer, Robin Cook, Margaret Beckett, Mo Mowlem and Gordon Brown. Their problem was more related to policy and organisation.

    Today, Labour has lost some of its best and most credible leaders and those that do serve hardly inspire confidence. This makes its task even more difficult. Some of their current policies are at least plausible but when presented by Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn they are not being treated seriously. That is a big mountain to climb.
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
  • Moby
    Moby Posts: 3,917 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    BobQ wrote: »
    When Labour was in the wilderness during the 1990s they had a credible shadow cabinet with people like Jack Cunningham, Jack Straw, Ann Taylor, Donald Dewer, Robin Cook, Margaret Beckett, Mo Mowlem and Gordon Brown. Their problem was more related to policy and organisation.

    Today, Labour has lost some of its best and most credible leaders and those that do serve hardly inspire confidence. This makes its task even more difficult. Some of their current policies are at least plausible but when presented by Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn they are not being treated seriously. That is a big mountain to climb.

    If they get rid of Corbyn and his toxic crew the collapse of UKIP means Labour be seen as the only alternatives to a poor Govmt. The fightback can then start.
  • Moby
    Moby Posts: 3,917 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    The leadership of the Labour party is currently racist, anti-Semitic and terrorist-supporting, yes.

    If you cannot distinguish between these views and those of the government, then you're morally incompetent. Alternatively you can, but you agree with them all. Or you can see the difference, you disagree with these hateful views but you are happy to confer democratic legitimacy on such people. Whichever applies, in each case it comes back to moral incompetence again.

    That's rich coming from a supporter of a party that kow tows to the Royal House of Saud that beheads gay people, supports Islamic State and is a tad anti semitic. It's called moral relativism! No one has clean hands......not even Saint Theresa!
  • antrobus
    antrobus Posts: 17,386 Forumite
    Moby wrote: »
    If they get rid of Corbyn and his toxic crew the collapse of UKIP means Labour be seen as the only alternatives to a poor Govmt. The fightback can then start.

    If....

    It is, of course, entirely possible that the government will turn out to be middling to fair (probably the best that you can ever expect) and that the "toxic crew" will continue with a different figurehead.

    P.S. Don't the Lib Dems count as an alternative?
  • wotsthat
    wotsthat Posts: 11,325 Forumite
    Moby wrote: »
    If they get rid of Corbyn and his toxic crew the collapse of UKIP means Labour be seen as the only alternatives to a poor Govmt. The fightback can then start.

    Labour are between a rock and a hard place. What's better - going into the GE with him in charge so it becomes abundantly clear to the membership they're out of line with voters or go into it with a temporary leader and look like the chaos is total.

    The fightback won't start with the membership so far to the left because they'll end up voting Abbott or McDonnell as leader and their stay in the wilderness will be extended.

    They need to move to the right or persuade people they should be voting to the left. Neither option looks particularly likely right now.
  • Moby
    Moby Posts: 3,917 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    antrobus wrote: »
    If....

    It is, of course, entirely possible that the government will turn out to be middling to fair (probably the best that you can ever expect) and that the "toxic crew" will continue with a different figurehead.

    P.S. Don't the Lib Dems count as an alternative?

    I think under the first past the post system there is only room for two parties......that will always mean Labour is the alternative.....unless they fall beneath a certain threshhold. Remember 1997 the tories were left with 165 MP's. Govmts inevitably run out of steam/become unpopular......the NHS, Social Care, education will see to that. The corrosive effect of a hard Brexit........etc

    Labour has to make itself electable however with a realistic programme in the middle...like Macron. They are the only alternative to the tories..........UKIP is finished!
  • Moby
    Moby Posts: 3,917 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    wotsthat wrote: »
    Labour are between a rock and a hard place. What's better - going into the GE with him in charge so it becomes abundantly clear to the membership they're out of line with voters or go into it with a temporary leader and look like the chaos is total.

    The fightback won't start with the membership so far to the left because they'll end up voting Abbott or McDonnell as leader and their stay in the wilderness will be extended.

    They need to move to the right or persuade people they should be voting to the left. Neither option looks particularly likely right now.

    Neither Abbott or McDonnell will ever be voted leader of the Labour Party. They will fall with Corbyn. Starmer, Cooper, Chukka, Jarvis, David Miliband may come back?
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