MSE News: Easyjet passengers told they'll have to fly on Latvian airline's planes

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  • coffeehoundcoffeehound Forumite
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    agarnett wrote: »
    I do wonder about how many "boots on the ground" there actually are, even in the UK CAA for their part, to achieve what you so succinctly describe perhaps as a best case scenario for the sort of regulatory oversight we all might like to think is in place. Have you a view on whether UK CAA might take the lead on ensuring joined up compliance on this one (as Easyjet's presumed main regulator)? With wet-lease, whose AOC is in play? And, just out of idle curiosity, was CKhalvashi right when he said that SL would be using EZY callsigns whilst operating EZY flights?

    I fear there are a lot more British soldier boots on the ground in the Baltic States right now than CAA types.

    I don't have any experience of wet leasing so was curious enough to have a look on the UKCAA site. It appears UK operators can call-in wet leased aircraft from other EASA community operators with a minimum of fuss for short-term, short duration lease totalling three days (extendable) per 12 month period; see paragraph 3 of this)

    After that:
    Please note the condition to this general approval (see paragraph 5 of ORS4 Number 1053) which limits use of paragraph 3) to a maximum of five days in a calendar month.

    For example, if a UK AOC wet-leases in another Community air carrier for three days without prior specific approval from the UK CAA, it would still have two days available for further wet-leasing in without prior specific approval during the rest of that calendar month.

    After the five days, specific approval must be requested from the CAA Leasing Co-ordinator.


    [Also]
    Recent changes to European Regulations (EASA Air Operations Regulation) and the changing business models of UK operators, has led the CAA to develop a new UK policy and process to assist in the wet leasing-in of aircraft registered and operated from within the Community.

    This new policy reflects the CAA's new strategic approach, including Performance Based Oversight (PBO), and provides UK AOC holders with greater flexibility when wet leasing-in aircraft from within the Community.

    The new process caters for the four principal scenarios foreseen by UK AOC holders: long term WLI and short term WLI - either planned or unplanned. At the heart of process is recognition that the UK AOC holder remains accountable for the safety of its operations when using WLI services and that it must oversee WLI aircraft as part of its own Safety Management System (SMS) to assure the safety of these operations.

    On the AOC question, the definition answers that:
    Wet Leasing is defined under EU regulations as an agreement between air carriers pursuant to which the aircraft is operated under the AOC of the Lessor.

    No clue here about the callsign question.
  • agarnettagarnett
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    Crikey, coffeehound, thanks a million!

    That puts so much more flesh on the bones of previous argument.

    So we might read between the lines that UKCAA have become concerned enough about Wet-Leasing from outside UK to UK to create new rules for it.

    I smiled at the difference between Wet Leasing and 'Damp Leasing', which I'd not heard before :)

    One item with obvious consumer interests in mind dropped out of my first reading of all that you had so kindly linked to for us:

    UK Operators are reminded of the requirements in Article 11 of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2111/2005, which requires the air carriage contractor to inform the passengers of the identity of the operating air carrier or carriers. See Article 11 for further information.
  • bagand96bagand96 Forumite
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    So we might read between the lines that UKCAA have become concerned enough about Wet-Leasing from outside UK to UK to create new rules for it.

    Well you might read it that way. Or you might actually read the quote.... they have introduced it to "assist in the wet leasing in" and "provides UK AOC holders with greater flexibility"

    SmartLynx have operated in and out of the UK for years. With Thomas Cook and Monarch logos on the side of their aircraft as well as operating for others. If the CAA had any problem, those operators and easyJet would not be permitted to use them.
  • coffeehoundcoffeehound Forumite
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    I wonder how far in advance they have to inform of the identity of the carrier, or does the 'today's EasyJet service is operated by Smartlynx' public address announcement cover it?

    Yes the terminology is bizarrely.. organic :)

    On the question about boots on the ground, the 'Performance Based Oversight' does, as it sounds, represent a reduction in UKCAA headcount, according to the annual report. Similar to intelligence-based smart policing I suppose.
  • edited 19 March 2017 at 2:24PM
    agarnettagarnett
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    edited 19 March 2017 at 2:24PM
    Yes the terminology is bizarrely.. organic :)
    Yes I very much like your subtle take on it coffeehound.

    And as for notifying the passengers they've found themselves on a different plane, but not to worry because it's going the same way, I question if that's another one that ought to be right up front there in the booking engine as opposed to leaving it till they have a captive audience so to speak! Bit like fees and admin charges, but then again, perhaps not quite, perhaps more like charging to use the toilet ;)
  • edited 19 March 2017 at 4:11PM
    blindmanblindman Forumite
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    edited 19 March 2017 at 4:11PM
    bagand96 wrote: »
    Well you might read it that way. Or you might actually read the quote.... they have introduced it to "assist in the wet leasing in" and "provides UK AOC holders with greater flexibility"

    SmartLynx have operated in and out of the UK for years. With Thomas Cook and Monarch logos on the side of their aircraft as well as operating for others. If the CAA had any problem, those operators and easyJet would not be permitted to use them.

    And the pilots\cabin crew- who fly them -and their Unions would also be up in arms.
    As-unlike the persistent ranter\troll on here-they fly 2-3 times a DAY on wet leased equipment.

    I hope his TV is fixed soon in the Care Home and that the Nurses come round more often with the medication.
    As his
    pretty discerning Googler,

    habit shows he needs distraction.

    Never seen so much BS about a nothing article.
  • agarnettagarnett
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    I have a feeling blindman that you haven't a flippin' clue about trends in any regulated business let alone aviation.

    But it takes all sorts. Glad you had a good read. Sorry you didn't understand much of it well enough to make a sensible comment

    Yes it is true that your next flight is likely to get you where you want to go, but you'll never understand exactly how, will you? You are not alone. Lot's of people find it easier to deal with that way. Safe trip!
  • blindmanblindman Forumite
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    agarnett wrote: »
    I have a feeling blindman that you haven't a flippin' clue about trends in any regulated business let alone aviation.

    You have a feeling?
    You know me?


    But it takes all sorts. Glad you had a good read. Sorry you didn't understand much of it well enough to make a sensible comment

    I-as others-can See a TROLL


    Yes it is true that your next flight is likely to get you where you want to go, but you'll never understand exactly how, will you? You are not alone. Lot's of people find it easier to deal with that way. Safe trip!

    Medication has obviously worn off.;)

    Let the Nurses take you to bed.:cool:

    I could tell you how many years I've had in Aviation-but you wouldn't listen :cool::cool:

    And Frankly i don't care.

    You are a Sad Troll
  • bagand96bagand96 Forumite
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    I could tell you how many years I've had in Aviation-but you wouldn't listen

    On the other hand, agarnett's faith in that bastion of aviation excellence, the CAA, suggests to me he/she has had very little, if any, dealings with them :rotfl:
  • edited 20 March 2017 at 1:20PM
    agarnettagarnett
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    edited 20 March 2017 at 1:20PM
    blindman wrote:
    I could tell you how many years I've had in Aviation-but you wouldn't listen :cool::cool:
    No I don't know you but your online demeanour leads me to ask if you are one of those hundreds of ramp rats who think it is cool to run around in dark glasses in all weathers, ogling the passengers in summertime? Nah never mind, don't answer. The whole business is staffed by ordinary people of all sorts. Being in it doesn't mean you know best or you know it all.
    bagand96 wrote:
    On the other hand, agarnett's faith in that bastion of aviation excellence, the CAA, suggests to me he/she has had very little, if any, dealings with them
    My guess is that I was reading (UK) CAA regulatory documentation (maintenance, licensing and flight safety generally) before you were out of short trousers. For the purposes of sensible discussion of course, it doesn't matter whether you were or you weren't - all that's needed there is a sensible inquiring mind and a bit of self-discipline.

    But whether you are suggesting (UK) CAA really still is a bastion of excellence (personally I sort of wonder sometimes given upsets like Shoreham) or whether you are making a play on words for the sake of it, the fact is that UK CAA do seem to have quite recently issued new guidelines to cover the exact scenario which is the subject of this thread. Now if the scenario is so normal and has been going on for years, then what took them so long, or alternatively, what stretching of various envelopes might have caused them to have intervened now?

    All airlines are not the same, and airline practices have definitely not remained the same over the past 15 years or more. The business models have been turned on their heads, and continue to develop. That means the operations continue to develop. When 25 minute turnarounds were introduced, it wasn't even well understood whether it was safe to take off again so soon with brakes possibly still very hot from the previous landing (wheel well fire risk - new rules had to be written). The equipment is light years different in some respects, but not in others. Inflight fire is probably still the risk most aviators fear.

    The financing has become extremely complex. Question is, have the humans in the business kept up, and the overarching question is always 'has the regulation kept up with the practices?' (in this or any other edgy business, like financial services too).
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