TENANCY issues

diz79

Ok L L wanted me to get back to him tomorrow hes given me until Friday this is the email he just sent me if anyone can help with this and the above questions before Friday that would really help. Thanks again by the way this is the third time hes demanded an answer.

I take it I can request photo evidence regarding condition of mattress etc?

IT LOOKS LIKE THE DOOR AND LOCKS WERE CHANGED AT THE BEGINNING OF TENANCY AS WELL WHEN I WASNT PRESENT.

Friday 3/3/2017 at 2pm I ll email .......about the amount I want to take from the deposit clarify everything, meanwhile email me tmrw about the rest of the things on the list if you think the amounts are not right.:

-90£ locksmith ( called by the agency)
-300£ cleaning flat plus carpets
- 250£ for changing the door and locks ( water incident at the beginning of the tenancy)
- 700£ repainting the walls and other small repairs( I did not include the small entrance room because it wasn't your fault)
- living room office chair was damaged
- the new bed needs assembly ( it s not the same quality)
- 200£ both mattress need to be changed/cleaned
- curtains/drapes need to be changed they are ripped
The total is 1540 as you can see above I did not charge you for some of the things.

Kind reagards,

G_M

Assuming we accept the Assignment took place (though see above) then

1) the departed tenant has no liability at all now.

2) your liability is for the tenancy that started in 2013. Your liability does not start from when you moved in. The entire tenancy was assigned to you. (see 10 below).

3) cleaning.
a) if the check out report indicates the property was less clean than the initial check in inventory, the LL can charge for cleaning.

b) Whether £300 is fair depends on the size of the property, how dirty it was etc. For example cleaning a dirty oven can be time-consuming/costly, whereas a quick dust around takes 30 minutes. Only you can judge what you think is fair.

4) painting
I've not re-read the thread - sorry. But whether this is justified also depends if damage (not normal wear & tear) was done since 2015. After 2 years I'd expect a certain amount of wear/fading of colour etc, but again only you can say whether the paintwork has been sufficiently damaged to require re-painting (rather than touching up).

5) mattress as above. I'd expect some wear and tear after 2 years, so depends how bad. How dirty are they? Stained? What were they like in 2015 on the inventory? Brand new? Already old?

Note that a LL cannot claim 'betterment'. So if the mattress was, say, 2 years old already in 2015, therefore now 4 years old, he cannot claim a brand new mattress - that is 'betterment. An average mattress (I assume it was not a deluxe £800+ mattress?) lasts 8 years. Maybe less in a rental property. So if it's 4 years old the most the LL can charge is 50% of the replacement cost.

6) if I remember right, the locksmith charge (£90) was because (you say) you were told to leave the (only) key inside? If this is right, and you want to contest the charge, then you'll need to convince the LL, or the arbitrator, that you did indeed follow instructions.

7) I have no idea what the 'water incident' was or why the door/lock was changed for £250. If this happened, and was the fault of one of the tenants, then yes you're liable. If no tenant was at fault, or the incident never happened, or the amount is more than actually charged, then contest it.

8) the chair, new bed, and drapes seem to have no amount against them so can be ignored.

9) the LL has every right to enter his property after the tenancy has ended. If you can prove he caused damage before the check-out inspection, and is claiming the damage was yours, then yes, contest it - butit's a bit far-fetched!

10) you agreed to accept the inventory dated 2013 (see clause 6 of the assignment document). You also agreed (clause 5) to make all due payments in the (2013) tenancy agreement, and to indemnify the outgoing tenant (clause 3). In other words if the outgoing tenant caused damage at the start of the tenancy, you took over his liability.

So taking all the above into account you need to decide

* which items you accept as tenant-liability, and which you completely deny
* for each item you accept, how much is a fair charge compared to what the LL is charging
* whether 'betterment' applies, and if so whether the LL's charge should be reduced

Then you list that out and propose paying whatever it comes to. The LL may agree, or may not. If not, you then decide whether to go to arbitration.

diz79

G_M wrote: »

Assuming we accept the Assignment took place (though see above) then

1) the departed tenant has no liability at all now.

2) your liability is for the tenancy that started in 2013.( The tenancy runs from 2015, but the itinery is from 2013) Your liability does not start from when you moved in. The entire tenancy was assigned to you. (see 10 below).

3) cleaning.
a) if the check out report indicates the property was less clean than the initial check in inventory, the LL can charge for cleaning.

b) Whether £300 is fair depends on the size of the property, how dirty it was etc. For example cleaning a dirty oven can be time-consuming/costly, whereas a quick dust around takes 30 minutes. Only you can judge what you think is fair.

4) painting
I've not re-read the thread - sorry. But whether this is justified also depends if damage (not normal wear & tear) was done since 2015. After 2 years I'd expect a certain amount of wear/fading of colour etc, but again only you can say whether the paintwork has been sufficiently damaged to require re-painting (rather than touching up). All he pointed out was some touch ups there was some wine spilt on one wall which I could not get off I tried to clean it but it would not come off I accept responsibility for that but I dont think the whole flat needs to be cleaned. Also regarding the intinery in 2013 had it not been painted since then, that is 4 years why is it our problem.

5) mattress as above. I'd expect some wear and tear after 2 years, so depends how bad. How dirty are they? Stained? What were they like in 2015 on the inventory? Brand new? Already old?

Note that a LL cannot claim 'betterment'. So if the mattress was, say, 2 years old already in 2015, therefore now 4 years old, he cannot claim a brand new mattress - that is 'betterment. An average mattress (I assume it was not a deluxe £800+ mattress?) lasts 8 years. Maybe less in a rental property. So if it's 4 years old the most the LL can charge is 50% of the replacement cost.
It looks exactly the same and I took photos are these improtant can I ask to see photo evididence of all? So it is at least 4 years old though

6) if I remember right, the locksmith charge (£90) was because (you say) you were told to leave the (only) key inside? If this is right, and you want to contest the charge, then you'll need to convince the LL, or the arbitrator, that you did indeed follow instructions. Estate agent says its landlord, LL says its estate agent. All I have is a text message as evidence, is this enough, and should there be three sets of keys both tennants and the agents or not, surely this is crucial?

7) I have no idea what the 'water incident' was or why the door/lock was changed for £250. If this happened, and was the fault of one of the tenants, then yes you're liable. If no tenant was at fault, or the incident never happened, or the amount is more than actually charged, then contest it. Was before I moved in so will ask other tenant

8) the chair, new bed, and drapes seem to have no amount against them so can be ignored.

9) the LL has every right to enter his property after the tenancy has ended. If you can prove he caused damage before the check-out inspection, and is claiming the damage was yours, then yes, contest it - butit's a bit far-fetched! Ok thanks

10) you agreed to accept the inventory dated 2013 (see clause 6 of the assignment document). You also agreed (clause 5) to make all due payments in the (2013) tenancy agreement, and to indemnify the outgoing tenant (clause 3). In other words if the outgoing tenant caused damage at the start of the tenancy, you took over his liability.

So taking all the above into account you need to decide

* which items you accept as tenant-liability, and which you completely deny
* for each item you accept, how much is a fair charge compared to what the LL is charging
* whether 'betterment' applies, and if so whether the LL's charge should be reduced

Then you list that out and propose paying whatever it comes to. The LL may agree, or may not. If not, you then decide whether to go to arbitration.

Great thanks for your help ive tried to do quicky in my lunch so we can possibly finalise tonight thanks for all your help really appreciate it as had no idea what to do.

G_M

your liability is for the tenancy that started in 2013.( The tenancy runs from 2015, but the itinery is from 2013)

Apologies. I didn't re-read the whole thread.

If no inventory (an itinery is a schedule of events or a journey plan!) was completed, and signed by the tenants, when the tenancy started, it cannot be relied on. An inventory from 2 years earlier is meaningless.

Unless the same tenants were involved eg

* 2013: Tenants A & B move in with 12 month fixed term, and check-in inventory is agreed
* 2014: fixed term ends and Tenants A & B move to a periodic tenancy
* 2015: Tenants A & B sign new 2 year fixed term tenancy
* 2015: Tenant A assigns their tenancy to tenant C

In that scenario there is continuity and the original inventory would be valid.

diz79

G_M wrote: »

Apologies. I didn't re-read the whole thread.

If no inventory (an itinery is a schedule of events or a journey plan!) was completed, and signed by the tenants, when the tenancy started, it cannot be relied on. An inventory from 2 years earlier is meaningless.

Unless the same tenants were involved eg

* 2013: Tenants A & B move in with 12 month fixed term, and check-in inventory is agreed
* 2014: fixed term ends and Tenants A & B move to a periodic tenancy
* 2015: Tenants A & B sign new 2 year fixed term tenancy
* 2015: Tenant A assigns their tenancy to tenant C

In that scenario there is continuity and the original inventory would be valid.

Ok So they cannot use this as evidence which makes our case stronger?

Could I possilby email you the inventory and check out pdfs to you privately to have a look at or is there a way to send here.

FBaby

Just to clarify re. the locksmith. Is the issue that they didn't know the locks had been changed by the previous tenants, so assumed that if you left the keys behind, they could use the key the held (ie. for the previous lock) to get in and retrieve yours. Except that if the locks were changed without notifying them and them being given a copy, they had no way of getting in, hence no other choice but to get a locksmith?

Did you know that the locks had been changed before you moved in?

diz79

Can someone please clarify if there should always be 3 sets of keys one for each tennant and one with either the landlord or agent. Ive tried to contact the agent today they havent got back to me. If this is the case I will go in and tell them that if not I guess ive lost this batlle unfortunatley and wasted a lot of time. The land lord rang me today and said he was going to charge us now 1040, does hehave to list the costs or anything like that? Or do we just have to accpet it all seems a bit dodgey to me why does he keep contacting us rather than sgo through the legitimate ways? Thanks for all help as most of this is a bit baflling to me and time consuming but ive always believed in fairness but it seems some poele are just greedy.

diz79

FBaby wrote: »

Just to clarify re. the locksmith. Is the issue that they didn't know the locks had been changed by the previous tenants, so assumed that if you left the keys behind, they could use the key the held (ie. for the previous lock) to get in and retrieve yours. Except that if the locks were changed without notifying them and them being given a copy, they had no way of getting in, hence no other choice but to get a locksmith?


Did you know that the locks had been changed before you moved in?

I didnt no before I moved it but the landlord hows now said he wont charge us the £250 for the original change before I moved in.But the other tennant was there as I replaced the guy in other room. It happend whilst my room mate was still there within the two years.

diz79

If anyone could help I would really appreciate it just to finalise this re what I wrote above?

Also the landlord has now told the people who are holding the deposit, I have 28 days to contest it. Does the landlord have to list all costs in order to justify what he is charging us? When I spoke to him the other day he told me hes already re painted the flat surely he should at least wait until the dispute is finalsed?

Thanks in advance

Arleen

Anything LL wants to charge for must be itemised. If it doesn't have a price by it, ignore it because if they cannot put a value on it, then you cannot respond to it.

No, LL doesn't have to wait for anything to do anything he wants to his property - it's his. Whether you are liable for it is a whole other story. And given how they still cannot produce one final itemised list of damages, you should write back and demand it, as you cannot have a discussion if the list changes with every day. That is not how any business transaction works.