Pip face to face meeting

Muttleythefrog

Mojisola wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone thinks it's worth recording it covertly.

The best reason for recording is to make sure that the assessor records the claimant's responses accurately and doesn't lie about the claimant doing physical tests when they didn't - seeing the recording devices on the table in front of them leads to much more accurate reports.

You don't? I take a bit of a different approach and so I'll give it for balance. It gives you a chance to actually recall what was said and what has happened. That is proving invaluable to me in making a reconsideration request and directly challenging some 'facts'. I had my assessment covertly recorded. As pointed out it is true that if caught they may well stop the assessment and as a result that could result in you not getting an award. However, I suspect the chances of getting caught are slim unless careless. I've made direct claims of what was said in my reconsideration request and warned the DWP I will create a transcript in order to submit to a tribunal (who can determine for themselves if it is evidentially acceptable). I'm yet to see their response after months.

On the second paragraph.. it is surely true an HCP that believes they are being scrutinised in some way is likely to make more effort to adhere to due process. However... In them not knowing whilst it removes this psychological pressure that could be very helpful... it does give the potential to fundamentally undermine a poor report I would say. I do unfortunately think legal and tactical shrewdness can be important and many claimants won't be sufficiently so to use even primary evidence in their case. On the issue of legality of course it's a well beaten path that covert recordings of this type are typically legal since the data collected relates almost exclusively to the self and it'll be for personal use rather that broadcast or publication.

My advice. Yes. make sure you have in mind the details you supplied on form and in supporting evidence. Take someone with you as support. Be prepared for a largely computer driven assessment with limited face to face contact with the assessor. Anticipate they could ask you to confirm your medical problems and personal circumstances and then collect facts surrounding your disabilities and activities (and inactivity) particularly in relation to the areas relevant to your difficulties that are appropriate to the PIP descriptor categories. It is key in my view that you study well the relevant descriptors that apply to you and that should lead to your PIP award. Be prepared for dismissive type questioning whereby the assessor can get you to say something that enables them to quickly select the descriptor that scores you zero points. So be prepared to say things like 'yes I do have a difficulty with x.. I'm affected because of my y and it affects me in z ways and go on to say how often and/or for how long and perhaps how someone or something helps you if appropriate'. Consider that for each disability category the default is you do not have sufficient problems to score any points... the assessor likely will have briefly studied your Disability Questionnaire form and so perhaps only be basically aware of the sorts of problems you have in particular categories. Assuming you filled in the Questionnaire with good information then you could consider this your chance to reassert what you wrote. Do not play down your problems... there are no points awarded for heroism. If you have a relevant difficulty... say so. There is a very good chance you'll feel rushed... the problem with these assessments is corners are cut and time is money... be prepared to be resistant to natural social responses you may have of trying to be helpful to them in this regard... this is your assessment... not theirs. They'll also make general observations of you and record details - particularly important I think where mental illness is claimed.

The working day after your medical I strongly advise you call (or someone on your behalf with your permissions likely necessary to continue the call) the DWP and ask for a copy of the medical report that resulted from your assessment. It is transmitted electronically I understand so they should probably have it quickly from the private healthcare contractor who conduct your assessment. The document to request is the PA4 - consultation report. The DWP almost always will heavily rely on this report to determine your entitlement and so you will likely have good idea what decision is to follow in the days or weeks to come. There is the possibility of writing to DWP Decision Maker at this point to put on record anything wrong in the report but you might get mixed successes... these decisions seem to be often little more than rubber stamping the PA4.

If all goes belly up... you'll have options later on.. but for now focus on the descriptors that will enable you to qualify for PIP and your circumstances and evidence relevant to them.

Mojisola

Muttleythefrog wrote: »

You don't.. I take a bit of a different approach and so I'll give it for balance. It gives you a chance to actually recall what was said and what has happened. That is proving invaluable to me in making a reconsideration request and directly challenging some 'facts'. I had my assessment covertly recorded.

But you get that if the assessment is recorded openly - two copies have to be made and you keep one of them.

Muttleythefrog

Mojisola wrote: »

But you get that if the assessment is recorded openly - two copies have to be made and you keep one of them.

How likely is that to happen? Here's what ATOS say "You can request to audio record your consultation by calling our Customer Service Centre, but you will need to provide your own equipment."


How many PIP claimants have equipment that would meet the requirements?

They add "
Your recording equipment must be able to produce two identical copies of the recording at the end of the consultation, either in audio cassette or CD format. You will need to give one copy of the recording to the Health Professional undertaking your consultation, at the end of the consultation. Devices like PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones or MP3 players are not acceptable recording devices.

• You will need to sign an agreement that sets out what you are and are not allowed to do with the recording."

So you also have to sign a disclaimer which I understand reduces your rights to use the recording.

Mojisola

Muttleythefrog wrote: »

How many PIP claimants have equipment that would meet the requirements?

I know of support groups who have bought the equipment to loan to members for their assessments.

Otherwise, people who have bought their own may loan it out - check on sites local to you.

Muttleythefrog

Mojisola wrote: »

I know of support groups who have bought the equipment to loan to members for their assessments.

Otherwise, people who have bought their own may loan it out - check on sites local to you.

It's something someone could do... and look into. But like I suggest... I think covert recordings are probably more valuable on balance (based significantly on the issue of trash reports as opposed to inaccurate reports) and in this age much more viable. I'd love to see the wording of disclaimers that need to be signed in advance before I'd even consider it could be better value to do as you suggest. If anyone has details in that regard I'd be intrigued... I think I've historically seen a copy of one for WCA. I would definitely recommend taking a supporter to assist with the factor you raise... to put pressure on the assessor to act appropriately... mind you it failed I think in my case... didn't even get her name right..lol

Mojisola

Muttleythefrog wrote: »

I would definitely recommend taking a supporter to assist with the factor you raise... to put pressure on the assessor to act appropriately... mind you it failed I think in my case... didn't even get her name right..lol

I would always recommend taking someone for moral support but it doesn't help otherwise.

My son's assessor directly lied on the form about the physical exam. When we challenged the lies, we were told that it was our word against hers and the fact that there were two of us didn't matter a jot.

Muttleythefrog

Mojisola wrote: »

I would always recommend taking someone for moral support but it doesn't help otherwise.

My son's assessor directly lied on the form about the physical exam. When we challenged the lies, we were told that it was our word against hers and the fact that there were two of us didn't matter a jot.

Well moral support is definitely one thing... but there may be practical or evidential importance. Practical and evidential in the sense of confirming help needed to attend such an event and providing it. In my case my support... my partner... proved invaluable (throughout but) at the end of the assessment for reasons I disclosed in discussion time debate. I was in no capacity to properly function let's just politely say. Supporter can potentially give input to the assessment (although of course the assessor is unlikely to start asking the questions of them).. my partner confirmed some facts or added to them to support what I was saying (relevant since they were confirming assistance they provided)... one or two were recorded as if I'd said them. But yes... they'll typically not be giving input within the assessment itself... not least because the assessor will be trying to get through the assessment efficiently so a second party likely no help to them in that regard.

The second paragraph you (sadly) raise is why I think covert recording could be important. We know that tribunals (and sometimes the DWP DMs) in relation to ESA and PIP may be persuaded that a report is so fundamentally poor that it is evidentially no more useful than used toilet paper. If you get a report (like me) that is largely accurate but has some oversights, dubious 'facts' and peculiar conclusions that I wish to challenge then perhaps my recording is not so useful other than to tidy up some facts and memories for consideration of others. But if I were looking to destroy a report which the DWP (and a tribunal) may rely on as the best evidence then a covert recording could be useful to do that because you're going to need some cutting and perhaps high volume contest of it. The fact that I've been able to directly quote from the assessment I am yet to see the in(effect) of.

I'm sorry to hear about your (son's) experience... I hope you're able to somehow overturn any negative outcome. I have a lot of sympathy for people going through this process. An accurate assessment in relation to the law is sadly often too much to ask.

50Twuncle

From Whatdotheyknow.com

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request dated 4 January 2013.
You asked:

The DWP's continuing and illegal obstruction of recording

I write in the context of the legal advice received by the DWP well over two years ago, namely:-
"…Legal advice has been obtained to confirm that recording of
assessments for the claimants must be allowed without unreasonable
obstructions. The majority of the claimants who request that their
medical assessment is recorded, do not have the financial means to
provide the specified recording equipment."

Please specify, clearly and in full, at least three separate, specific, examples (make and model)
of AUDIO-recording equipment which the DWP will treat as acceptable for (overt) AUDIO-
recording BY CLAIMANTS of any type of sickness\disability assessment, i.e. for ESA, DLA or
PIP.

I will cite any delay, or childish and impertinent evasion, in answering this request as further
illustration of the DWP's gross obstruction and lack of transparency on this issue, in support of
my forthcoming reference to the ICO concerning production of the full text of the legal advice to
which my opening paragraph above refers.

In response to your questions claimants may use their own equipment to record their Employment
and Support Allowance (ESA) and Disabled Living Allowance (DLA) face-to-face medical
assessments. However, the DWP requires that they must be able to provide a complete and
accurate copy of the recording to the Healthcare Professional (HCP) at the end of the
assessment.

I can advise that acceptable formats of the equipment for such recordings are restricted to CD
and audio cassette only. We recognised that not all customers would be able to obtain such
equipment themselves which is why DWP has provided some recording equipment for this
purpose.


Atos Healthcare at the request pf DWP were asked to source equipment that would provide a
duplicate recording, the only solution that could be sourced to provide CD dual recording devices
are those manufactured and supplied by Neal PLC which is part of the Canford Group. It was felt
preferable to use CDs rather than tapes because of their known better durability and resistance to
breakage

The recording device currently used by the Atos Healthcare is the Neal 9102 Dual CD Audio
Interview Recorder.

The Freedom of Information (FOI) Act provides access to information held by a public authority at
the time of the request. The Act does not require DWP to create new information solely in order to
respond to an FOI request, and therefore on this occasion it is unfortunately not possible to
provide a list of all the possible recording solutions on the market.

Claimants wishing to use their own recording equipment should make a request to Atos
Healthcare as part of the appointment booking process.

At present there are no plans to offer audio recording to PIP claimants. The Department intends
to look closely at the ESA experience and evaluate the impact of audio recording, before taking
any decisions on whether to include it as part of the PIP process in the longer-term
Yours sincerely

DWP Business Management Team
Health & Disability Assessments (Operations)

yasminec

Thank you so much.
What is this pip descriptor . I have no idea or on the points please help



QUOTE=Muttleythefrog;72098999]You don't? I take a bit of a different approach and so I'll give it for balance. It gives you a chance to actually recall what was said and what has happened. That is proving invaluable to me in making a reconsideration request and directly challenging some 'facts'. I had my assessment covertly recorded. As pointed out it is true that if caught they may well stop the assessment and as a result that could result in you not getting an award. However, I suspect the chances of getting caught are slim unless careless. I've made direct claims of what was said in my reconsideration request and warned the DWP I will create a transcript in order to submit to a tribunal (who can determine for themselves if it is evidentially acceptable). I'm yet to see their response after months.

On the second paragraph.. it is surely true an HCP that believes they are being scrutinised in some way is likely to make more effort to adhere to due process. However... In them not knowing whilst it removes this psychological pressure that could be very helpful... it does give the potential to fundamentally undermine a poor report I would say. I do unfortunately think legal and tactical shrewdness can be important and many claimants won't be sufficiently so to use even primary evidence in their case. On the issue of legality of course it's a well beaten path that covert recordings of this type are typically legal since the data collected relates almost exclusively to the self and it'll be for personal use rather that broadcast or publication.

My advice. Yes. make sure you have in mind the details you supplied on form and in supporting evidence. Take someone with you as support. Be prepared for a largely computer driven assessment with limited face to face contact with the assessor. Anticipate they could ask you to confirm your medical problems and personal circumstances and then collect facts surrounding your disabilities and activities (and inactivity) particularly in relation to the areas relevant to your difficulties that are appropriate to the PIP descriptor categories. It is key in my view that you study well the relevant descriptors that apply to you and that should lead to your PIP award. Be prepared for dismissive type questioning whereby the assessor can get you to say something that enables them to quickly select the descriptor that scores you zero points. So be prepared to say things like 'yes I do have a difficulty with x.. I'm affected because of my y and it affects me in z ways and go on to say how often and/or for how long and perhaps how someone or something helps you if appropriate'. Consider that for each disability category the default is you do not have sufficient problems to score any points... the assessor likely will have briefly studied your Disability Questionnaire form and so perhaps only be basically aware of the sorts of problems you have in particular categories. Assuming you filled in the Questionnaire with good information then you could consider this your chance to reassert what you wrote. Do not play down your problems... there are no points awarded for heroism. If you have a relevant difficulty... say so. There is a very good chance you'll feel rushed... the problem with these assessments is corners are cut and time is money... be prepared to be resistant to natural social responses you may have of trying to be helpful to them in this regard... this is your assessment... not theirs. They'll also make general observations of you and record details - particularly important I think where mental illness is claimed.

The working day after your medical I strongly advise you call (or someone on your behalf with your permissions likely necessary to continue the call) the DWP and ask for a copy of the medical report that resulted from your assessment. It is transmitted electronically I understand so they should probably have it quickly from the private healthcare contractor who conduct your assessment. The document to request is the PA4 - consultation report. The DWP almost always will heavily rely on this report to determine your entitlement and so you will likely have good idea what decision is to follow in the days or weeks to come. There is the possibility of writing to DWP Decision Maker at this point to put on record anything wrong in the report but you might get mixed successes... these decisions seem to be often little more than rubber stamping the PA4.

If all goes belly up... you'll have options later on.. but for now focus on the descriptors that will enable you to qualify for PIP and your circumstances and evidence relevant to them.[/QUOTE]

Muttleythefrog

yasminec wrote: »

Thank you so much.
What is this pip descriptor . I have no idea or on the points please help

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/how-decisions-are-made/

refer to part Download: Table of activities, descriptors and points [ 43 kb]
The descriptors are the statements of disability and points (or zero points) are awarded for each.

They're available in lots of places online... as are some guides including produced by the DWP in handbook for their Decision Makers as to how these descriptors work...i.e. what they mean.

There are, to confirm, like DLA a Daily Care(for PIP called Daily Living) and Mobility component. However only two rates for each with PIP.

As you will see there are 10 categories of descriptors for daily living.. relating to different disability areas like Washing/Bathing.
In each of the 10 categories a descriptor will be determined applicable to you (if more than one then likely the higher scoring will be selected). They total those associated points for the descriptors chosen and if 8 to 11 then you get awarded standard rate... if 12 or more then enhanced rate.. if less than 8 then no award.

Similarly for mobility but only 2 categories. The points work the same... 8 to 11 is standard rate... 12 or more enhanced rate.. less than 8 is no award.

This makes assessment methodology much more similar to that for ESA.. although of course criteria and awards are clearly different and for different purpose.

In your questionnaire they specifically asked about difficulties in the 12 categories.. and it is in these 12 categories where relevant that the assessor will investigate/ enquire of you as well as confirming other information. The report (PA4) produced by your assessor at the assessment literally will specify which descriptors they think apply to you and briefly why.... and because this information is specific to the criteria for PIP and typically very recent the DWP Decision Maker is likely to consider it the best evidence in front of them so much so there is good chance they'll agree with it all. If you have any relevant medical or healthcare type reports or documents that confirm disabilities relevant to the descriptors then they could be invaluable... and if not already supplied (when you sent your completed Questionnaire) then take copies to the assessment and hand them over. A minor point in comparison... make sure to get travel expenses back if applicable... you've probably already been supplied information on that when asked to attend the appointment. Slightly underhand tactic or a practical necessity... but worth mentioning for legitimate or illegitimate reason for people out there... if you cannot attend appointment then with decent reason you can probably arrange just once an alternative appointment time and date in advance by contacting the company doing the assessment. I had to reschedule due to partner's circumstances.

My advice to you would be to try to get time with a member of your family a couple of days before the assessment (the more technically minded they are the better in my opinion.. if they're a lawyer then beg them..lol.. but probably the person you want to attend with you if anyone.. the person who helps you day to day). Assuming you have a copy of your completed questionnaire look at what was written on it, look at any other evidence you supplied (and/or can supply) and have a good look at the descriptors and advice such as in the link at the top of this post. With assistance set out the relevant activities you have disability and the descriptors applicable and think of what you would say in relation to the problems you have with those activities. If you can prepare yourself to present relevant information then on the day it may be more automatic to you... so they may for example ask you if you have difficulties washing... if you do and you've already prepared what you'd say about those difficulties then the task of giving relevant information may be simpler.. as you say it will be stressful.. it was to me.. but good preparation helped me massively even when I was barely conscious of my surroundings. Be polite (if that's how you naturally are..lol) but do not be bullied. They will almost certainly have one eye on the clock (and the other making casual observations like your ability to sit and how well kempt you are).. but your eyes must remain fixed on getting into this appointment the relevant information of your circumstances. It'll be over likely (but not necessarily) well within an hour and you'll leave with ear-ache as they'll have been banging away on their keyboard as if their life depended on it.